Guest Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 i work in a early years setting and we are going on a trip to the zoo with children aged 2yrs 9 months - 4yrs. what is the ratio for going out on trips. our bosses have said 1:4 is correct.....it cant be....can it? any offers (preferably of a lower ratio) would be much appreciated!!!!!! thanks
AnonyMouse_79 Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 hi Sherbert & welcome. I do hope someone else will be able to help you as I'm not working with such young children.
AnonyMouse_73 Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 I know our ration is 4:1 but our age group is 3-4. I though you needed more if they were under 3?
AnonyMouse_73 Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 sorry Sherbert, how rude of me. Welcome on board and thanks for making your first post
AnonyMouse_1999 Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 I do not know whether ratios for an outing differ from those applicable in a setting. I only know that we operate on 1:2 for children who are not yet 3 and 1:4 for the over threes. We are also limited to the number of 'under 3's' that can attend each session. I can't imagine going to the zoo with one adult responsivle for 4 chidren under 3 Sorry! this isnt really a lot of help!!!
AnonyMouse_2127 Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 Whenever we go on outings or even trips around the Pre-school we have one adult for every two children. The children in our care are 2.5 yrs to 5yrs old. On Thursday we have planned a walk round the local area and we need to have 13 adults - so far we have 5 staff and 3 parents - still 5 more parents/carers to find - otherwise we won't be able to go out, which will be a shame. Sue J
Guest Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 I always work on a ratio of 1 adult to 2 children for outings. When working out the staffing/parent helpers I never include myself in the ratio either although I always go on the trips. The Standards don't actually give you a ratio to follow, they just say 'appropriate' . With a ratio of 1:4 though, it would be extremely hard work - especially if you have to make trips to the toilet etc, and holding hands might be a bit of a problem too! (not so much the holding hands, but the worry of them letting go!!). In my case parent helpers are the only way to make these ratios up. However in your case of the trip to the zoo you're probably going to be landed with extra admission charges - so who would you ask to pay for that .... the helper or the pre-school/nursery? Last year I was planning a trip to a farm but the cost just got so huge because of the extra adult admission charges as I didn't feel we were able to ask them to pay- in the end we opted for a play centre + train rides round the park as adults were free! I know I haven't really given any advice because when planning trips, this question has to be one of the first considerations. I find trips quite hard work, so I wouldn't want to give myself more of a headache! You haven't said how many children are going on the trip or whether you have done trips before with that sort of ratio. Ultimately the Standards allow you to make the decision and the responsibility for that lies with the Manager and the Outings Policy that you work to. Wow, that sounds all doom and gloom doesn't it! Sorry, it's not meant to - I am sure you will have a fab. day however many go!!!!!!!!! Byeeeeeeeeeeeeee Janice
Guest Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 Hi Sherbert and welcome to the forum. This is one of those grey areas that I think the standards haven't really addressed. We try to have a 1 to 2 ratio when we go on our trips and when we went to Chester zoo in March all the staff were supernumeray. That meant that we could look after children while carers went to the toilet and help out where they were having problems. I do charge helpers for the trip otherwise we wouldn't be able to go. But, at Chester zoo, under 3's are free and for every 3 over 3's 1 adult is free. So I added all the charges together and divided them by how many were going. It worked out a lot cheaper and pre-school paid for the coach. I would not consider going on a trip with a ratio of 1 to 4 even if they were all over 3-its too much! Hope this helps. Linda
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 Hi Sherbert, the ratio is definetly 1:2. My friends nursery has just been inspected and she was asked this, inspector agreed 1:2 for outings.
AnonyMouse_2732 Posted May 10, 2004 Posted May 10, 2004 Hi there Sherbert, Good call! I don't think there are any hard and fast guides here so people can - and do!!- please themselves. My feeling is 1:2, with, if you can, some supernumeraries. (luxury!!). It's what I always insisted on when I supervised a preschool playgroup. Now I'm working in a DN I'm somewhat more constrained, but usually manage to get a decent number of staff.( By dint of my amazing charm! ) Agreed!! Ofsted and those responsible for setting the Standards need to DECIDE a ratio, so we don't blunder in the dark and remain at the mercy of less responsible superiors! Till then, rea - please note, this was probably the Inspector's opinion. The fact that we agree is just a bonus. Sue
AnonyMouse_1027 Posted May 11, 2004 Posted May 11, 2004 I Run a pre school and we tend not to do trips unless parebnts accompany. Ofsted and Accreditaion prefer 1:2 ratio on outings and i personally would not exceed that.
Guest Posted May 11, 2004 Posted May 11, 2004 I work to a 1:2 ratio as I'm super paranoid! I remember going to Colchester Zoo with pre school a couple of years ago, All I did all day is count children, and then count them again!!.......and once more to make sure
Helen Posted May 11, 2004 Posted May 11, 2004 Welcome to the site, Sherbert, We've recently had an Ofsted and the inspector said 1:2 would be an acceptable ratio (she was carefully not to say "required!") Like the others, I would be very worried if you had more children than that to each to adult.
Guest Posted May 11, 2004 Posted May 11, 2004 thanks for all of your welcomes and replies guys!!!!! we have asked for parent helpers but as its a full day care nursery, the majority of parents work which does not help!!! the parents of the children that are little monkeys have been asked to go.....they were fine about it.....surprisingly! ratio is now reduced to 1:3 but i am gonna push for 1:2 i feel a headache coming on already just thinking about the trip day!!! (but i should be very fit by the end!!!!) thankyou again guys!!!!
AnonyMouse_1027 Posted May 11, 2004 Posted May 11, 2004 Good for you Sherbert Ive worked in a day nursery and it is definatly harder there than in a pre- school to get parents to help. I do sympathise.
Guest Posted May 18, 2004 Posted May 18, 2004 On the last course I did was told 1-4 but I would not take that amount of children out.1-2 I think is what I would do.But then i'm getting old!!
AnonyMouse_64 Posted May 18, 2004 Posted May 18, 2004 On the subject of outings I just wondered what the rest of you do re permission slips. On our last playgroup outing I got the secretary to put out letters with permission slips. In the event all the children were accompanied by adults and the chair person said it was a waste of time for everyone filling out the slips. We've got another trip next Wednesday and as yet the committee haven't put out letters to parents - on the assumption I think that everyone will be going again. What should I do?
AnonyMouse_1027 Posted May 18, 2004 Posted May 18, 2004 personally i send out slips for every outing...but i do not leave it up to the dreaded committee....
AnonyMouse_2732 Posted May 18, 2004 Posted May 18, 2004 Carol, I would put a member of staff on the door to grab parents/carers to get signatures just in case they don't all accompany you. After all, what's the option - disappointed children who can't go!! Maybe check on volunteers at the same time because - even worse ! no trip because of insufficient ratios Does that make sense? Where are you going? Sue
Guest valletta Posted May 20, 2004 Posted May 20, 2004 In our preschool we get mums to come with the children - if we have to take a child on any outing we get the parent wot put in writing permission for that member of staff to take the child etc normally we have no trouble - especially when we take the children plus parents to Gatwick Airport - this is a full morning trip and it is funny how nearly all of the mums come to this - including dads too we get a concession on the train to gatwick (us being in Horsham, west sussex) as it is a educational trip, most of the children do not travel not trains (we have to get a bus to the station first), then into Gatwick which is about 20 mins away from Horsham Station. We go on the Monorail to the North Terminal - go up the Observation Centre where the Children and poatrents can see planes taking off and landing, then we have a walk around (all together - but in small groupds), have a mcdonals there then return back to the preschool - this is a good trip out, also we take the children to Horsham rural musuem too... but have the parents coming along with there own child.
AnonyMouse_2157 Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 Hi there folks while on the subject of ratios can I ask this for a friend? She's at a school where funding is very low. They are forming a nursery but are unclear how many staff are needed. She tells me that there will be 15 children in the nursery with 1 teacher and 1 support assistant (although that support is only until Christmas ) Can anyone give advise as to the ratio with that many children and if it is written in marble somewhere, where would she go to get that so that she can past it onto her head. Naturally she is very concerned over this issue (I'm trying to get her to subscribe to the forum so that she can do the leg work herself ) thanks liza
AnonyMouse_1027 Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 Dont quote me on this but i thought in a nursery school it was one qualified teachewr plus an assistant to about 25 children.... im sure someone with more knowledge will correct me on this but im sure its quite high....
AnonyMouse_2157 Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 hi Hali thanks does this mean that 1 teacher could be with 15 children and if so what would they do if there was a problem e.g. a child was in need of urgent medical attention or a child was throwing a paddy and needed to be taken aside for time to calm down? Liza
AnonyMouse_3307 Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 I think it is 1:13. I have 3 adults and 39 children in my nursery class. At my last school it was 2 adults and 25 children. I checked the 1:13 when our staffing was reduced from 4 adults to 3 and according to my LEA advisor it's OK. Not desirable though...... On trips we have a 1:4 policy for foundation, this is the policy agreed by the governing body and laid out in the trips and outings policy. We've just had a fabulous trip to London zoo but to get all the children/required adults and supernumery adults meant we had to charge £12 each for the coach and adults coming extra had to pay the entry cost of £10. It can get very expensive.......... The monkeys behaved themselves!!
AnonyMouse_1999 Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 Do ratios vary according to type of setting? I work in a pre-school with 21/2 -4yr olds and the ratio is 1:4 for under threes and 1:8 for 3 and 4yr olds. I had heard that ratios were lower in nursery classes of primary schools - is it really 1:13
AnonyMouse_2732 Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 liza Geraldine, it's only schools where the ratios differ. I'm fairly sure your 1:13 is correct, but I once had a manager who employed a NQT who couldn't get a job as a Nursery Nurse, purely because 'her ratio was 1:16' !!!!!!!! How she'd ever got to be a manager not realising that the children's ages dictate the ratio in a DN, not the qualifications of the staff, I do not know. She got quite shirty with me when I pointed this basic out to her. I'm pleased to say, the NQT (lovely girl) got a supply post and is now happily teaching. Sue
Guest Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 Hi here Nursery classes ratio is 1: 13 and 2:26 and so on. Some nurseries with 15 chidlren will employ 1 teacher and another TA who might be 'cheaper than a nursery nurse . But the expected legal standard is 1: 13. i have some documentation that i could dig up for you if you like. If the nursery unit is situated out of the main school building then, they recommend an additional adult (TA or volunteer) as good practise. Volunteers are not supposed to supervise chidlren on their own. We are a 26 place nursery with 20 chidlren at the moment. (in a portakain out of main school) At my nursery we have one adult floating inside, one outdoors (in rare good weather) and one doing a focussed task. (3 days a week) There other 2 days we are 2 members of staff and both float in our indoor and outdoor area!!! If a child has to be changed etc we bring all the chidlren where they can all be seen and then 1 member of staff changes while the other 'supervises' the chidlren and the adult changing the chidl. This is just for staff protection against allegations Trips out of school 1:3 is reccomended and usually follwoed.
AnonyMouse_2157 Posted July 5, 2004 Posted July 5, 2004 thanks Leo that sounds like a difinitive guide. I will copy your posting and send it to my friend. If it's to hand and not too much trouble I'd appreciate a nod in the right direction for the documentation thanks Liza
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