Guest Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 Well ...am I the only parent then who doesn't give a jot what the 'media' says about national standards, competiton between peers etc etc ? Perhaps......I'm so laid back I'm nearly falling off my chair. - do I sound arrogant - yes! I very rarely read the papers and I scoff at most parenting books etc. I go by my own instincts and not the latest fad. Maddy you're right I'm not a 'glass half empty kinda gal' I think my glass is actually overflowing!! BTW No parent/carer is ever a lost cause. You offer information and help where possible and then it's up to them whether they participate or not, or whether they agree or not with the info being given. Of course a parent sees their child differently from a teacher it's 'stupid' to suggest otherwise but a parents view of their child can sometimes be unrealistic. During my dreamier moments I think my eldest son is going to be the next Einstien and my youngest son the next British Wimbledon champion but that doesn't make me stupid. Back in the real world I'm not an idealist I'm a realist. mousebat Quote
Guest Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 Hi Hali Thank you. Completely off topic Hali ( please take care if you use cash machines in Maidenhead. My husband's card was cloned and we've been relieved of quite a bit of money ) Quote
Guest Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 mousebat, i found it interesting that your son is special needs. my daughter is also, i found once her needs were recognised i had no worries regarding her education . i really don`t care what other children can do in her class and i have no interest in test results etc . like you it is the contact with the people who work with and support her that is important. it is this experience that has made me more determined to provide the same support for my son, special needs or just special he will get there at his own pace! maddy. Quote
Guest Posted July 5, 2004 Posted July 5, 2004 Hi maddy We were lucky that my son's needs were sorted out at pre-school where he had 1:1 help. By the time he started school last Easter he was already statemented and was given 21 hours 1:1 help. So the only worry I did was that he would settle well at school, which he did. I have an older son who has no problems and I've never had to worry about him as he's very bright - so his teacher tells me! Maybe it's different when it's the older child who has special needs and you probably tend to worry about the younger child - I have a friend in that situation. I think this is why I have the attitude I have, if some of these more pushy parents had special needs children their views might change! You have to be realistic then. We get reports today so it'll be interesting what his teachers say about him. mousebat Quote
AnonyMouse_64 Posted July 5, 2004 Posted July 5, 2004 Part of the problem is that in recent years philosophy about teaching children has chopped and changed about. Some of it has worked and some of it hasn't. Parents don't want to see their children being used as guinea pigs and ending up in the position 10 years down the line with someone turning round and saying, "Sorry, that didn't work, lets go back to the drawing board." So they look back on their own education and if it worked for them they think thats good enough for their children too. We immerse ourselves in 'learning through play' everyday. We come onto this site and reaffirm each others belief in what we're doing. Parents, however, don't have the benefit of that and are consequently apprehensive about sitting back and 'doing nothing'. The proof is in the pudding and we won't get that for years and in the meantime parents have to put their trust in what we do and understandably they worry for their children. Quote
Guest Posted July 5, 2004 Posted July 5, 2004 I don't think this thread was about parents worrying about their children - all parents worry, whether their children are doing well or not - that's a very natural thing. This thread was basically about the expectations of parents about their children's ability and the fact that some parents don't understand or don't want to know what their children should be doing at this age. As a parent I don't give a jot about the latest philosophy. I'm sure there are some parents out their who do read up on the latest philosophical thinking on eduaction but I bet most don't. Maybe I should ask my parents tomorrow. - there goes that bee again buzzing around in my bonnet! mousebat Quote
Guest Posted July 6, 2004 Posted July 6, 2004 Beau - What a great post! I think you are very right. The constant changes in policies must overwhelm many parents. Each one is heralded as 'the' way, and implies (or directly says) that previous methods were 'wrong', when in fact, most methods hold some value, in moderation. For example, the supposed 'real books' or 'whole language' vs 'phonics' debate. The truth is that no one 'system' works for all children at any one time. Every child is different, so no teacher should be flogging one horse and not using every strategy available for all children. There is nothing that says that any one methodology needs to be exclusive. In fact, many teachers recognised that and offered phonics along with a whole language approach. They knew that we need to be offering a balanced language approach that includes phonics at an appropriate time - then children can take what is meaningful to them. But of course, the government and the media are quick to dismiss any one system as being 'rubbish' and blame it for 'failing' our children. Parents got the message that the supposed lack of formal learning was a failure, so therefore many now think that their children need to be drummed with phonics and formal rote learning. Not that a balance is needed. Parents have heard it all. Those who can read, most likely remember being drummed with formal learning of phonics, times tables etc. Therefore most parents naturally will want to stick to the 'tried and tested' system that they believe will work. Is it surprising then that the FS is too woolly for them? Where is the proof that their children are learning? Where are the tests that show that this system is working? What will they do if this turns out to be another 'fad' that is a failure? These are high stakes, when you perceive that it is your own child being 'experimented' with. Mousebat, I think that you are unusual in being a parent who doesnt worry about what the media says about education. But then, if you work in education you have two perspectives - a sort of 'inside line'. Most parents only have the information given to them by the media, and then by the setting. And it is human nature to want the best for your child and to worry if you don't see evidence that they are getting what they need. That's why the information we give about the FS needs to be convincing, and accessible. Making it accessible and meaningful is often a great challenge. It is not, realistically, always going to be successful, but we need to keep on communicating about the importance of play and child development. As Beau said, it is going to take years for people to see the value, in terms of 'proof', and some will probably never be convinced. In the meantime, we need to keep working with parents to give their children the best possible provision. The proof will be in the pudding....... Quote
Guest Posted July 6, 2004 Posted July 6, 2004 I've always liked being unusual it beats being predictable and boring. I may be lucky now that I'm on the 'inside' but that hasn't always been the case. I never invloved myself at the school where my eldest son was at, never bothered the teachers, I've never bothered doing homework with him except checking reading and spellings. When he asks for help, which is rare, he gets it. We never made an issue of Key stage 1 sats. The bottom line is he's happy at school , not under pressure and he's the top of his class despite being the youngest! This is because he has the brains and he's going at his own pace - which is obviously very fast. This is a realistic view of my child not an idealist one. He's a very happy and well adjusted child. Bragging about him - you bet I am. I've seen parents push their children so hard when they're not capable of it and they've turned them into nervous unhappy wrecks. BTW - I asked some parents (most of whom are professional people) if they read up on the latest philosophical thinkings in education - guess what none did intentionally. They came across the recent newspaper articles As a teacher I teach to the needs and abilities of my pupils and I use whatever method I feel benefits them the most. I don't care whether it's in keeping with the latest fad or not. Despite my views I always provide the best possible education for the children I teach. Although I say so myself I am a good teacher and the parents are very happy with the way I have taught their children. We may not have years to convince parents the benefits of the FS curriculum as it stands as there is already talk (especially in my LEA ) of adapting it. Just when parents come to terms with the FS it will be changed. I remembr not long ago play was out, now it's back in where is it going next? That's why some parents are confused. The messages are never consistant. Even amongst people 'in the know'. My LEA says one thing then Ofsted tell us something completely different. However, children will learn in spite of all the latest fads. I've been educated throughout some strange fads over the years and I haven't done too badly. My children are now going through the latest 'fads'and I don't feel they're being experimented on. They're learning new stuff every day and I don't care what methods the teachers are using. I think parents are happy that their children come out of school happy and have learnt something on the way. I don't think they give a second thought to the methods that have been used. I'm never going to agree with some of the points made here and others are never going to agree with my point of view. This debate is just going round in circles now and getting nowhere. I'm sure iomcc didn't invisage this lot of mud throwing when she started the thread. OOps! that bee is still buzzing around in my bonnet - any one got a fly swot? m'bat Quote
Guest Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 Mousebat, you sound like the sort of parent we'd all love to have in our school - multiplied by the number of children on roll! You said that most people come across the latest educational issue just through newspapers, and I think you are absolutely right. And the trouble is that often what they read is not too helpful. I hope that you are wrong that the FS will alter radically and be looked back on as a fad in education. I'm sure aspects of it need to be refined and changed. It should evolve, just as everything new needs to evolve and grow. But the basis, of a play based curriculum, needs to stay, permanently - in my opinion, anyway. The details may alter, but the philosophy needs to stay strong, and we need as practitioners to explain it to parents and ease their fears and anxieties. Not always an easy thing to do! I think you are right that children learn in spite of the fads in education, but if there are major differences in the very basic philosophy, then the outcome is very different - not always in 'standards', but in emotional and social wellbeing. There has been some interesting research on groups of children taught very formally and others taught through a play based curriculum. The 'standards' at the end were similar, but there was startling differences in social outcomes. For example, the number of these children who were then as adults in trouble with the police, on medication for depression, in counselling for emotional difficulties. Interestingly, the chidlren who came out the most emotionally secure and socially able were those in the play based settings. Maybe we should get this research summarised and printed out to give to anxious parents at open evenings! (only joking). I'll try to get back later to give a reference for the research, it's late here and I can't recall it right now. Quote
AnonyMouse_79 Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 Thats really interesting research, Nicola which would support my own gut feelings about the education that my sons received at their "Beacon" school, which was disappointedly formal. Beacon status was awarded while the children were already on role, and the school was chosen because it is our neighbourhood school. Our house is literally at the end of the school field. I knew at the time that things were not necessarily as I would have wished them to be and both boys were quite unhappy at different times in different ways but the risks of moving them and finding things were no better were too great. So we perserved. Both are still struggling in different ways at secondary school and my elder son has just been to Mental Health! Quote
Guest Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 I think you misread my post, Nicola. I never said I disagreed with play based education. I just talked about the way I saw early years education going which is basically round in circles. m'bat Quote
Guest Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 I didn't think for one minute that was what you meant. Mousebat! Sorry if I didnt make that clear, it was late here when I posted and I had a toddler refusing to go to sleep. Susan, the research was done by David Weikhart in the States back in the 60s. It is quoted at length in Kutolak's 'Inside the Brain', along with a wealth of other really interesting research. This is one of the most accessible and easy to read books on general research into learning, in my opinion. Worth getting a copy from the library if you can! Quote
Guest Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 No problem, Nicola. Sometimes I think it can be very difficult to gauge the right tone and meaning of things we write. I like a good debate and I think we've had a good one here! m'bat Quote
AnonyMouse_1490 Posted July 10, 2004 Posted July 10, 2004 Nicola I have ordered the book you recommend from the library. It will make interesting reading during the hols. I have been interested and involved in early years education for 30 years and have found that everything does go full circle. Once funding was given to 4 year olds the government wanted proof of learning but why if research information was available in the 60's did they not use it to form the curriculum. Certain criteria should be laid down i.e. is the child happy ,confident ,caring, able to listen and follow an instruction would be far more sensible than trying to hot house children. I say let them play and they will learn automatically when they are ready. Quote
Guest Posted July 10, 2004 Posted July 10, 2004 Yep, BubbleJack, you are right. I have seen some circles myself, so many sometimes that it makes my head spin! You are absolutely right about the importance of play. This time, I sincerely hope that all they do is tweak the FS, improve upon it and let it evolve. Not go full circle on the underlying principles. Hopefully we'll all be here in ten years to celebrate the evolution and improvement of the FS and it's impact upon KS1, and maybe even KS2! Quote
AnonyMouse_1490 Posted July 11, 2004 Posted July 11, 2004 Well I shall definately be retired by then but I hope I shall see the benefit through my grandchildren and future generations. Hopefully these children may grow up as "well balanced adults." Quote
Guest Posted July 11, 2004 Posted July 11, 2004 Aah, but even if you've retired, you can still be here, in between lazing around on an easy chair in the garden. You can always use a laptop!! (As long as Steve has the stamina to keep going another ten years LOL!) Quote
AnonyMouse_1490 Posted July 11, 2004 Posted July 11, 2004 Yes I will look forward to coming in here. I hope it is in between travelling the world and not sitting in an armchair though. We have visited many places and would love to have stayed for longer.The only time I am still is when I am asleep. Yesterday I received a new Barney tape and was keen to play it and dance to it with the grandchildren but gradually my husband and all the adults left the room one by one. I wonder why!! Quote
Guest Posted July 30, 2004 Posted July 30, 2004 Hey, guess who has "challenged" me again today?!!! Yes it's that father again, only this time demanding that I teach his daughter to read using ABCand not phonic sounds. I have calmly asked exactly what he wants me as his daughters key worker to do with her, and explained what our policies on pre-reading/writing etc are, and given him written and physical evidence of the FS Curriculum in practice, showing the obvious benefits of learning through play. His response to this new request is that he is (in his exact words) "sick and tired of having to tell me my job, he has been told to teach his 3 year old daughter the ABC and the phonic method is totally obselete and a waste of time" I tried to show by examples picked up during my time in reception how children can use the phonic sound as clues, or stetch the word to hear all of the sounds, but I do feel as thought this parent just "gets one on him" sometimes!!!! I would love to know where he gets his information on reception teaching from, as he seems to think that his daughter needs to reading, multiplying, telling the time and probably splitting the atom by the age of 4!!!!!! I know you've all been really helpful in the past, but I really needed a rant and rave!!!! Janet Quote
AnonyMouse_79 Posted July 30, 2004 Posted July 30, 2004 Oh dear!! Roll on your holiday!! Theres no answer really is there except to grin and bear it. Hes going to be a trial to a lot of people not just you. Quote
Guest Posted July 30, 2004 Posted July 30, 2004 I have to agree with Susan on this one. I think he is one of those parents that obviously has some knowledge but not enough and feels he knows what is best for his child. I think you are going to just have to put up with him-he's obviously not willing to listen. And look forward to the day when his child moves on. You may be losing a lovely child but at least she takes her father with her! Linda Quote
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted July 30, 2004 Posted July 30, 2004 Oh Janet, When he say's he's sick and tired of telling 'you' does he mean you personaly or the nursery? As keyworker do you have to speak to him or can a manager take over? If one of my staff had problems like this I would step in. Just dont take it to heart, if he was really that unhappy he would move his daughter. He has a choice after all. We had a mother a bit like this a couple of years ago, she took her son out but it took him 5 months to settle at the new setting. There will always be parents that want what they cant have and be prepared to tantrum for it..but bear in mind that we are used to dealing with childlike behaviour! Good Luck, hope your holidays arrive quickley. Quote
Guest Posted July 30, 2004 Posted July 30, 2004 Poor you! How frustrating. Can you hand him onto your manager or someone else to talk to? Or maybe liaise with the reception teacher that his daughter will move on to, and suggest a meeting with her? Maybe if he hears another expert explain the same things, he will relax - or if he can't get the answer he is seeking, he may at least give up! What method exactly does he want you to use? Can you ask him who is giving him this advice, and to bring you in the appropriate literature? Maybe he is interpreting something wrongly that he has been told? Anyway, good luck, and roll on your holiday. These situations can be very tiring, can't they? Nicola Quote
AnonyMouse_3307 Posted July 31, 2004 Posted July 31, 2004 Poor you. He sounds like a very rude and arrogant person. This is bullying behaviour. Please get support with this. Noone, parent or not has the right to speak to you or treat you like that. He does not drive your setting's policy and he must have had this shown and explained to him when his daughter started. That is the policy and practice he effectively signed up for. Maybe If he won't listen to you then refer him to your complaints procedure/seniors and then he can winge at someone in a higher position. You have nothing to fear as you are doing the right thing by following policy but you need the others to be supporting you and showing him he cannot be a bully and that this type of behaviour will not be tolerated whatever his problems are. Have a good break and try not to think about him too much. It only leads to stress and that's not good. Quote
Guest Posted August 1, 2004 Posted August 1, 2004 Thanks everyone for your words of support, although you try not to let it get to you it can!!! It's nice to know that there is somewhere you can visit just to let off a bit of steam! I have decided to ask the parents if they would like to come and speak to myself and my line manager, to see if we can explain our policies and curriculum and gain a better insight into their expectations. I will ask that he brings along any information to show us, and we will be armed with our evidence too!! Have to wait until after the holiday though, I can't wait, 3 weeks in sunny LA from Tuesday!! Thanks again for your support. Janet Quote
AnonyMouse_3307 Posted August 1, 2004 Posted August 1, 2004 I'ld want to tell him that really it's all his fault for not planning his daughters conception adequately enough to allow for school entry points. Quote
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