Home Based Study?

[Guest]

Hi all

Not sure if I have put this in the right place?

 

Anyway looking at doing NVQ 3 in childcare etc but may have missed the deadline and not sure that they start half way through the year! Have not got any childcare qualifications (degree in Biology) but my supervisor says I should be ok to go straight to NVQ3.

 

If I cant get on course until next Sept anyone done/know of equivalent home based study I could do myself? Seen lots of courses but confused about what I could do!

 

Unable to do part time/eve course at college due to childcare issues myself plus also work 3 nights per week at Sainsburys! Hence the thought of being able to do in my own time at home while kiddies at school

 

Anybody know if I could get funding for this?

 

Any advice appreciated as usual.

[AnonyMouse_13453]

Have you tried your county sure start/children's services team? They should have grants available to help with this and also - as you already have a degree - to fund your EYPS, why not do that instead?

[Guest]

Have just posted on your other message but then I saw this. I did my level 3 with the NEC, distance learning and did the DPP (Diploma in Pre-school Practice). The course itself was fine but check that the local area knows what it is as it seems that in my area no-one has a clue! The problem I had was the support as I had a tutor to ring/email but that was all. I know some areas offer a local support group in addition to the online forums you can access. And of course you can always ask here, something I didn't have then.

 

In my area there are also lots of training providers springing up who are offering the NVQ route but by work based learning. Tutors come out to visit you at work or home and so long as you complete within 2 years you can go at your own speed pretty much. I would call your early years people to see if they have any information about these kinds of things.

[Guest]

I am also now doing EYPS with an unrelated degree and if you want to ask about that just shout. I am personally glad I did the level 3 first though, and it has given me more time to gain experience.

[Guest]

Hi

NEC was the site I have just visited! Again its the Diploma/Cache/NORN thing...on trying to say go for a deputy job that wants NVQ then where do thee fit in? All the EYFS framework states is NVQs.

 

My supervisor is currently doing EYPS however she already has 2 years of BEd under her belt! I need a quick childcare qualification hence not quite looking at that! To be honest I think a Deputy job would be as far as I would aim for . Its getting the qualification as fast as possible especially to be in accordance with the framework for EYFS.

 

How did you find your course through NEC? Was it good?

[Guest]

The NEC course itself is different to the NVQ but completely equivalent according to the Qualifications and Curriculum people so that isn't a problem. The issue arises when those who are supposed to know ask "what's that then?" as I had even from my assessor at the Gateway for my EYPS!

As I say I would still advise people to do that or similar before embarking on EYPS anyway. The course is I think more academic in its style than the NVQ is and my manager at the time who had done both (long story) thought I would be better suited to the DPP than the NVQ and additionally it tied in better with my home life. That is not to say it is harder. Just different in its methods, for example there were lots of assignments and no evidence to collect. I did prefer to write a long assignment as I can't half waffle(!) and on the EYPS now I have to collect evidence and am finding layout of that a bit difficult.

 

With the DPP I did find it difficult to drop back to that level of study (without wanting to sound big headed) and I think that caused issues for my tutor as I am not sure she was happy with the style of my assignments and methods of learning. A good relationship with the tutor definitely makes all the difference and unfortunately for whatever reason I didn't have that.

 

My experience of my staff doing the NVQ is that if they are capable and are on one of these work based courses, then they can get through it very quickly. So that might be important if time is an issue for your setting. If you have any more questions I can help with just ask away.

[AnonyMouse_3735]

Must agree about looking at DPP.. I have recommended this to all my staff who have asked and they have completed that rather than NVQ as it was more assignment based and they said they learnt a lot more doing that than those who we now have doing NVQ ( college insisted and under 25 so fully funded) .. Theirs was college based with PLA as it was available and fitted in at the time.. as it turns out they all started in January!

 

I too did DPP.. actually before it was called DPP.. and as it was not recognised being so old.. I had to do NVQ.. the success and speed always seems to depend to a degree on your assessor.. I did mine in 8 months but was experienced and also had a really good assessor..

 

Given choice I would do DPP ...

 

Inge

[Guest]

Hi

So if I cant get on NVQ until next Sept would it be better for me to look at doing the diploma with NEC then? I have no problem doing exams etc and like yourself could produce a good essay or two!

Only other thing that bothers me is that you are already supposed to be in supervisory role to do NVQ3 and Im an assistant! Im also unsure how much it actually affects the setting doing NVQ3? When tutor in assessing you would it need an extra staff member in to cover for you?

How does it actually work?

 

As for the diploma do you know of anywhere else that does it?

 

Thanks again

[Guest]

Our local college does NVQ one evening a week and the course runs Jan to Dec.

 

Hope that helps!

[AnonyMouse_3735]

we have staff who do level 3 not in supervisory role.. actually these days it would be hard to have a job in supervisory role without the level 3.. you need it to get the job as your experiences with hiring a deputy shows...

 

You don't need more staff when being assessed .. you should be observed as part of your Daily work.. and if needed our staff member came in on a day off to do some of the other paperwork with the assessor.. particularly as she did not want the assessor going to her home which was suggested at one point!

 

Inge

[AnonyMouse_12805]

I've been running our pre-school for last 6/7years and I have a DPP, which I gained through NEC around 8 years ago.It is equivalent to an NVQ3. Around here to do a NVQ3 you need to have a NVQ2 first although reading your posts I would say for you it would be a waste of time. Try looking into DPP and see how you get on. I managedto do mine in 7 months but I had been working in a pre-school for around 5 years when I did it and had also written a lot of the policies and paperwork, so didn't find it too bad. of course this was soemtime ago and things have probably changed. I dont know of anywhere in my area that does it at present.

[Guest]

Hi all

Well I really fancy the idea of the diploma but just spoken to funding department and they say they would prefer me to do NVQ3 unless I can come up with some good reasons to do other course. So anyone got any ideas? At the moment we already have tutor in for other assitant NVQ2 training so Im thinking less disruption as possible reason? HELP!!!

 

In fact all those that did the diploma were you actually visited in the setting at all? Or is it all assignments based on your experiences?

 

Thanks for any advice!

[Guest]

No visit in the setting at all for me! Could you not argue that as the two are different the training you do will complement the training of NVQs, thereby providing a more balanced approach and making you and the rest of the staff more able to reflect on practice? I know if you were all doing the same training with the same provider (when our staff did) they tended to all think alike, a bit like sheep actually, but once someone else did a course with another provider the discussions changed slightly as they brought a different viewpoint to it.

[AnonyMouse_3735]

no visit.. assignment based...

 

timings of course.. could you start sooner with DPP .. rather than wait for Sept..

 

agree with the different viewpoint..

 

different learning style.. you learn better / easier by completing assignments.. learn in more depth..by research..

 

 

Must be more reasons.. personally think it was better training all round , but could just be our college assessors ..

 

Inge

[AnonyMouse_8466]

Well I really fancy the idea of the diploma but just spoken to funding department and they say they would prefer me to do NVQ3 unless I can come up with some good reasons to do other course. So anyone got any ideas? At the moment we already have tutor in for other assitant NVQ2 training so Im thinking less disruption as possible reason? HELP!!!

 

In fact all those that did the diploma were you actually visited in the setting at all? Or is it all assignments based on your experiences?

There are benefits to having two members of staff with the same assessor though, marley - I don't think there would be too much of a risk of turning out the 'sheep thinkers' that holly described (although I have to say I recognised exactly what she was saying!).

 

Given the problems you have had in your group with recruiting a Level 3 practitioner, I would have thought that time was of the essence - and the quickest way would be to do the NVQ because you can drive the pace of that according to your own levels of experience and knowledge.

 

I seem to remember someone posting on here about a National initiative to gain childcare qualifications... will go away and do a bit of searching.

 

I did the DPP and there were no setting visits - I believe there used to be back in the day when the PLA did the DPP training but that has long since stopped - probably due to funding, I'd say! I would recommend the DPP if you like the idea of going to college and being 'taught' rather than having your own practice assessed in the workplace. Its very interesting that the LA prefers one over the other in terms of funding support - hardly an inclusive practice in an area where we are constantly being reminded that we are all individuals and learn in different ways!

 

Maz

 

PS: Did a quick search - here's the post but it was about childminders. Still, might be worth asking the question anyway!

Edited November 3, 2008 by HappyMaz

[AnonyMouse_3735]

NVQ is not always quicker though....

 

we have a member of staff who eventually had hers signed off after 2 years.. she had virtually completed it in a year but assessor kept causing problems then she had to re do a unit as it was so long ago things had changed.. all sorts of problems.. she only had her certificate last week after we complained about her not receiving it even though she had finished in June! They were not going to giver it to her until the new year! that was almost 3 years since starting!

 

Our foundation degree student got her Ba before the NVQ one had her certificate and they started at the same time!

 

So a lot depends on college and assessor.

 

Inge

[Guest]

Thanks all

Will see what my supervisor says but keep coming up with the reasons!

[AnonyMouse_12805]

I was visited in setting. twice actually. But this was almost 10 years ago, and it has changed a lot since then.

I would be inclined to challenge the funding issue- not very equal opps is it?

[Guest]

Good point lynne

[AnonyMouse_2995]

I am also now doing EYPS with an unrelated degree and if you want to ask about that just shout. I am personally glad I did the level 3 first though, and it has given me more time to gain experience.

 

 

Hello Holly,

 

Just reading this thread, might need you help. I have just completed my level 4 and now going on the EYPS because i have a degree, can you pls tell me how you are finding the course, i will be starting in Jan. 09.

 

Thanks

Toro

[Guest]

JUst to add my two penn'orth:

Two of my colleagues - fairly experienced - have just signed up for in-workplace NVQ's under the 'Train To Gain' scheme [ I think that's the name!] The tutor has already observed both of them for about 2 hours each and there'll be at least one more assessment each before Christmas. They are focusses, well-orgainised and motivated individuals & I think this will work well for them. Because of family committments I don't think either would manage a college situation at the moment. They have 1 year to complete!

[Guest]

Hi Toro. Despite various whines you might find from me about the EYPS on this forum I do think it has been worth it. I haven't enjoyed the disorganised methods of the college delivering it but meeting regularly with other local practitioners who are on a level with me to just talk things over has been fantastic. Of course you don't need to do EYPS to get that but I have also found other parts interesting too. I am just coming to the end - literally as I have setting visit on Thursday and I am absolutely shattered at the moment, but if you would like to PM me with any other questions or for any support I would be happy to discuss it with you further. Alternatively just shout out some more questions here and I will check back, but it might be a bit slow over the next few days.

[Guest]

Hello Holly,

 

Just reading this thread, might need you help. I have just completed my level 4 and now going on the EYPS because i have a degree, can you pls tell me how you are finding the course, i will be starting in Jan. 09.

 

Thanks

Toro

 

 

Helen has written some articles relating to the EYPS find them HERE, (part 5 on preceding page)

 

Also have a look in the EYPS forum, found from the forum index page for lots of discussions of peoples experiences and queries.

 

GOOD LUCK

 

Peggy

[Guest]

Hi all

Well I really fancy the idea of the diploma but just spoken to funding department and they say they would prefer me to do NVQ3 unless I can come up with some good reasons to do other course. So anyone got any ideas? At the moment we already have tutor in for other assitant NVQ2 training so Im thinking less disruption as possible reason? HELP!!!

 

In fact all those that did the diploma were you actually visited in the setting at all? Or is it all assignments based on your experiences?

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

 

Basic fundamental difference between NVQ and Diploma.

 

NVQ is NOT a course, it is an assessment of knowledge, skills and attitudes. Workshops are planned alongside the 'units' by the training providers/assessors, but you need to ask yourself is an awareness raising workshop what you want when a gap in your K.S or A is found? You may end up attending workshops that aren't relevant to your personal 'NVQ' needs. Does the learning within the workshop, which is planned for a generic audience/student group enable consolidation of concepts, and is the assessment of such knowledge valid if 'performed' soon after the workshop?

 

Diploma is a COURSE of learning, concepts are consolidated through further individual study to be able to compile a required standard of essay. Essays are based on own reflection of practice / experience.

 

As an employer I preferred Diploma over NVQ as a good measure of any job applicants knowledge and ability.

 

some other arguments for and against:

NVQ - people can be good at 'practice' but do they know why they do what they do? Knowledge judgement, for me, depended on the quality of the assessor. Keeping in mind that assessors are paid for completed units/NVQ's.

 

DPP- people can be good at theory and not good in practice, some may say, but the DPP does require 'reflection' of practice. The tutor gets paid whether you complete or not.

 

When NVQ's were initially introduced I thought great this was a way for experienced practitioners to 'prove' their knowledge skills and attitudes, gained through 'experience' and to hve this recognised with a qualification and not necessarily need to do further study unless you found gaps in own individual knowledge during the process of assessment. Unfortunately because each 'candidate' had an 'income for trainers' on their heads, the system, in my understanding, became all about 'getting candidates through' and impart information to them along the way, to me this is not quality teaching/learning. A bit like school children being taught to psas SAT's and not taught for real life. It lost the focus of assessment of what you know, can do and within the required values and principles. As an example an NVQ student with little experience of considering 'Inclusion' would attend an Inclusion workshop, then have this 'criteria' marked off. To me the principles of inclusion go much deeper than this at level 3. In the DPP, inclusion and the principles of it would be expected to be imbedded in all the assigments/essays as a common thread.

NVQ's assessment of practice can only be measured by the assessors interpretation of what good practice looks like.

 

I was an assessor and I found the system didn't allow for quality assessment, in terms of many of my candidates didn't meet the standards I understood to be required, yet similar candidates with fellow assessors were being 'marked off'. There is a lot of ambiguity. The candidates also found the paperwork and portfolio building unwielding. (which was not the initial intention of the NVQ process)

 

I once had a member of staff doing NVQ 2 (she had started it before she came to me) one criteria was about the environment, displays being appropriatte, including children etc. Anyway I observed the assessor as my staff showed her a display on our hall wall (about healthy eating), the assessor wrote down notes, asked the staff a few questions. On her next visit she told my staff that that criteria was marked off as complete. I asked to speak to the assessor, asked her about the staffs knowledge and skills on making displays, to which she told me she was very pleased with her standard and it had also covered some knowledge criteria in another usit about health. I then told the assessor that the display she was looking at was not created by my staff but by the local scout group who also used the hall. ENOUGH SAID!!

 

As you can see I am not a great fan of NVQ, I am sure there are good examples but in my experience with my staff who chose to go down both routes, the ones who chose Diploma were more successful, compared to ones who chose NVQ, the NVQ had the higher drop out rate (due mainly to paperwork, assessors leaving/unavailable).

 

With regards to funding, agree with others argue your case of equality of opportunity / choice. The government push NVQ because it is cost effective (assessors overworked underpaid), it is easily accesible to candidates who maybe should not undertake them and therefore has more 'takers'. Governments goal is to have high number of people in 'work based training' it makes their unemployment figures look better!. Thus the reason LEA's are given better incentives (financial) to push the route of NVQ.

 

Everything is political, so my advice is don't get caught up in political agenda's, decide what qualification route best fits you (you're learning needs and styles) and your family commitments and go with that.

If you decide NVQ ask some questions about the 'providers' 'actual' time scales of completion for past candidates, rather than the expected- they get paid anyway once you've signed up for it.

 

waffle over

 

Peggy

[Guest]

You make some good points, Peggy. That's a very soundly reasoned argument.

 

In defence of NVQs it's not true that they are all paid once you sign up - often it's per unit completed only, and they can't just sign candidates off on lower standards because the External Verification process is rigorous. In addition there is a very detailed OFSTED process for training bodies, too. My husband manages a training provider [amongst other things - I should say he manages the managers I suppose] and I think things have changed a lot in recent years .That's one reason we went the NVQ route. Also I wasn't at all impressed with some of the Diploma tutors at the time. I certainly know of one NVQ tutor who would not accept a Child Protection course as any kind of knowledge evidence for her candidates. In fact we begun to despair of what she would accept! But don't we say the same things about consistency of every process - including OFSTED inspections?

[AnonyMouse_64]

Basic fundamental difference between NVQ and Diploma.

 

NVQ is NOT a course, it is an assessment of knowledge, skills and attitudes. Workshops are planned alongside the 'units' by the training providers/assessors, but you need to ask yourself is an awareness raising workshop what you want when a gap in your K.S or A is found? You may end up attending workshops that aren't relevant to your personal 'NVQ' needs. Does the learning within the workshop, which is planned for a generic audience/student group enable consolidation of concepts, and is the assessment of such knowledge valid if 'performed' soon after the workshop?

 

Diploma is a COURSE of learning, concepts are consolidated through further individual study to be able to compile a required standard of essay. Essays are based on own reflection of practice / experience.

 

As an employer I preferred Diploma over NVQ as a good measure of any job applicants knowledge and ability.

 

I can only speak for myself here obviously but the workshops on offer by my assessment centre were optional, according to the needs of the individual. There would then be further ‘homework’ after the workshop to show that you had absorbed and understood the information. Some of this would entail knowledge imparted during the workshop, some would require you to further investigate by yourself. Therefore concepts were consolidated. Indeed, the whole of the NVQ is holistic, requiring you to continually revisit the whole of your practice again and again. (The endless cross referencing was a bit of a bugbear but it did help you to understand the bigger picture, rather than seeing things as separate lumps of knowledge). Essay writing in itself is a skill which many people do not possess and which a lot of people struggle with. Having this skill is not a necessary requirement of working with children and nor is it a requirement for an NVQ.

 

some other arguments for and against:

NVQ - people can be good at 'practice' but do they know why they do what they do? Knowledge judgement, for me, depended on the quality of the assessor. Keeping in mind that assessors are paid for completed units/NVQ's.

 

DPP- people can be good at theory and not good in practice, some may say, but the DPP does require 'reflection' of practice. The tutor gets paid whether you complete or not.

 

This is just swings and roundabouts - at the end of the day, the individual is what counts and which qualification they have. I know some really good and really bad NVQ students and similarly those who went through some sort of college based course varied immensely. A well planned interview process can help to eliminate those in the bad camp, regardless of which route they came by.

 

When NVQ's were initially introduced I thought great this was a way for experienced practitioners to 'prove' their knowledge skills and attitudes, gained through 'experience' and to hve this recognised with a qualification and not necessarily need to do further study unless you found gaps in own individual knowledge during the process of assessment. Unfortunately because each 'candidate' had an 'income for trainers' on their heads, the system, in my understanding, became all about 'getting candidates through' and impart information to them along the way, to me this is not quality teaching/learning. A bit like school children being taught to psas SAT's and not taught for real life. It lost the focus of assessment of what you know, can do and within the required values and principles. As an example an NVQ student with little experience of considering 'Inclusion' would attend an Inclusion workshop, then have this 'criteria' marked off. To me the principles of inclusion go much deeper than this at level 3. In the DPP, inclusion and the principles of it would be expected to be imbedded in all the assigments/essays as a common thread.

NVQ's assessment of practice can only be measured by the assessors interpretation of what good practice looks like.

 

I beg to disagree Peggy! Taking your example, if you actually look at the NVQ standards you will find inclusion imbedded throughout. A massive amount of the NVQ is the underpinning knowledge - you are required to have a good knowledge of not just what constitutes good practice but why, including knowledge of key theorists.

 

I was an assessor and I found the system didn't allow for quality assessment, in terms of many of my candidates didn't meet the standards I understood to be required, yet similar candidates with fellow assessors were being 'marked off'. There is a lot of ambiguity. The candidates also found the paperwork and portfolio building unwielding. (which was not the initial intention of the NVQ process)

 

I think the main problem here seems to be the lottery you get with different centres. The centre I did my NVQ with and later my A1 award was extremely professional. The candidate was at the heart of everything and they continually strove to improve the support received by individuals. All centres are externally verified on the ‘standard’ of the candidates they are passing and should have in place strict quality control procedures. If they don’t then the centre may be ‘put on hold’ until they can prove they have in place the correct procedures. If you have doubt that a centre is not doing this then you should complain!

 

I once had a member of staff doing NVQ 2 (she had started it before she came to me) one criteria was about the environment, displays being appropriatte, including children etc. Anyway I observed the assessor as my staff showed her a display on our hall wall (about healthy eating), the assessor wrote down notes, asked the staff a few questions. On her next visit she told my staff that that criteria was marked off as complete. I asked to speak to the assessor, asked her about the staffs knowledge and skills on making displays, to which she told me she was very pleased with her standard and it had also covered some knowledge criteria in another usit about health. I then told the assessor that the display she was looking at was not created by my staff but by the local scout group who also used the hall. ENOUGH SAID!!

 

My argument here would be that your staff member demonstrated her knowledge of what constituted a good display, perhaps spoke to the assessor about how she could produce such a display involving the children. Perhaps they also spoke a little in general about healthy eating etc. There is not requirement to actually do everything yourself - to do so would be cumbersome, time consuming and pointless.

 

As you can see I am not a great fan of NVQ, I am sure there are good examples but in my experience with my staff who chose to go down both routes, the ones who chose Diploma were more successful, compared to ones who chose NVQ, the NVQ had the higher drop out rate (due mainly to paperwork, assessors leaving/unavailable).

 

Completing a course is an easier route - you have a regular time commitment each week, you are given regular assignments in similar sized chunks, the course is set in regard to what you are studying and the order you study things. An NVQ is much more individual (or should be - I am totally against it being run as a college course which is not what it was designed for) requiring a much more mature form of studying as you have to manage your own time and route throughout. Again, these are skills which many people do not have and if you don’t then a college course would be better suited to you. It also depends upon the professionalism of the assessment centre and assessor much more - get a bad one and you will struggle.

 

With regards to funding, agree with others argue your case of equality of opportunity / choice. The government push NVQ because it is cost effective (assessors overworked underpaid), it is easily accesible to candidates who maybe should not undertake them and therefore has more 'takers'. Governments goal is to have high number of people in 'work based training' it makes their unemployment figures look better!. Thus the reason LEA's are given better incentives (financial) to push the route of NVQ.

 

Everything is political, so my advice is don't get caught up in political agenda's, decide what qualification route best fits you (you're learning needs and styles) and your family commitments and go with that.

If you decide NVQ ask some questions about the 'providers' 'actual' time scales of completion for past candidates, rather than the expected- they get paid anyway once you've signed up for it.

 

waffle over

 

Peggy

 

Something we can agree on!! Don’t just sign up without investigating first and choose the route which you are going to feel most comfortable with. If you are in contact with others who have been through training, ask them about their experiences with the different providers too. The quality of these can vary enormously. A bit of time spent now may save you a lot of heartache later on!

[Guest]

Thanks Beau and Weightman, I thought my comments might provoke description in defence of NVQ, and I am always open to be 'proved' wrong or mis-informed or 'outdated'in my views/experiences.

 

Definately more information for Marley to help with her deliberations (and hopefully not confuse).

 

I hope what she has been informed is that there is good and bad training / assessment providers, but would like to add, if any person wants to succeed in their training, then hopefully any 'issues' can be overcome. The motivation of the student is paramount, and any learning exerience will be positive, if you go in with 'eye's wide open' as to what you may expect to get.

 

Good luck with your studies Marley, be interested to hear what you do choose and why.

 

Peggy

[Guest]

Hi

Thanks for all the advice given...well have just this week sent off my application for funding for the Diploma! I have justified why I would like to do it, sent of lots of info and letter from supervisor also. I think it a course I can really get my teeth into and really liked the areas it was covering....lots of theory to be used with what I actually do in practice (perhaps there is still too much of the science grad in me!!)

 

So will have to wait and see what they say...will let you know.

[AnonyMouse_64]

Thanks Beau and Weightman, I thought my comments might provoke description in defence of NVQ, and I am always open to be 'proved' wrong or mis-informed or 'outdated'in my views/experiences.

 

Definately more information for Marley to help with her deliberations (and hopefully not confuse).

 

I hope what she has been informed is that there is good and bad training / assessment providers, but would like to add, if any person wants to succeed in their training, then hopefully any 'issues' can be overcome. The motivation of the student is paramount, and any learning exerience will be positive, if you go in with 'eye's wide open' as to what you may expect to get.

 

Good luck with your studies Marley, be interested to hear what you do choose and why.

 

Peggy

 

There's nothing like a good debate for getting the old grey matter working.

 

Fingers crossed for you marley - I hope that all goes well. :wacko: