Fathers For Justice

[AnonyMouse_3139]

Peggy I have to agree with Sue R, truly grown up of you all.

[AnonyMouse_2732]

Interesting point, Geraldine!

 

It's just come home to me (because of your post) that MANY of our parents are not married, but living a harmonious family life! Interestingly (being a DN in a large city, close to the city centre) most of these parents are professionals and high achievers. These relationships seem as stable, or not, as the case may be, as 'married' couples and I have realised I have never even considered the question of access!!!

 

Am I wrong, am I missing something, or is it all just TOO complicated?????

 

Sue

[AnonyMouse_1999]

Not sure if you are missing something or not Sue, but if you are then that makes two of us!!!

 

I have accepted each of our parents for who they are with what I hope is respect for their lifestyle/ethnicity/religion or whatever and included in it (without having realised!) is their marital status.

 

Thinking back to the child i mentioned who has now left - he, his little sister, mum and dad were all just delightful, a really lovely family, and i think whether I should or shouldn't have 'legally' asked mum to provide written confirmation as to dads position in collecting children, to do so would have been totally inappropriate

I would imagine they would see it as me 'frowning' on their personal choice not to marry and I would hate to do that!! With emphasis on respect for diversity and anti discriminatory practice wouldn't it be discrimination against non married parents??

 

I am still unsure about questioning parents as to why a father has no contact Perhaps I have lost the plot now but we recently welcomed a child being brought up in the jehovah witness faith, we accepted Mums decision to do so, didnt ask why she had chosen it but acknowledge a decision she has made regarding her child so why then when she says dad is not on the scene should I say "well why not etc!"

 

Not sure I know the answers, actually not sure I know the questions never mind the answers!!!!

[AnonyMouse_2732]

Well, doesn't this just show how complicated we all are!! But also how accepting....... Once I would have been proud to say that. Oh NO!!

 

Can we please go back to a simple life?.....

 

Help?

 

Sue

[Guest]

I too never questioned the access / collection arrangements for "happily together couples" until OFSTED said we should know the "Parental rights" of the people collecting the children because a person without parental right ( such as nan, aunt, grandad or father "figure") we must have permission from the person with parental right for any person without parental right to take the child from the premises.

 

I can understand all your points regarding sensitive information, trust, equal status etc but at the end of the day we must also protect ourselves when letting a person take a child from the premises.

 

I complete my registration forms during a home visit ( this I know is another issue that brings debate) being in the "parents" home enables me to begin the process of building a good relationship and trust. I ask the question of status..ie..married, single, divorced, separated, widowed, then follow on with a discussion from this information regarding access / collection ( often the father with / without parental right is present). I explain the legal requirement to ask these questions with regard to their childs safety / security. Sometimes I will make a joke about the burdens of red tape etc and try to be as informal as possible...I then move on to ask who else may collect the child so that the parents see that the questions are entirely related to "who the child leaves the premises with" and not about their personal relationships.

 

I have never had "an awkward moment" or angry parent for asking the questions, more I think it shows the parents that I am a professional doing a professional job in ensuring their childs security at all times.

 

Peggy

[AnonyMouse_3307]

No matter how close and stable a family unit is if the parents are unmarried the father has little or no rights if anything happened to the mother for example. It might be a bit different now that parental responsibility can be gained by the father but I know several friends who have got married after years, just because of that one factor: full time father, no rights.

 

I think the difference between asking about religions etc and who is responsible legally for the child is that the latter could prevent a serious situation if one exists in the making and we didn't know how to react.

 

However even a legally entitled parent can take a child from school and then murder them as happened to a friend of mine's school, years ago. Can we ever be utterly secure/safe in our judgements??

[Guest]

I'm thinking back to the forms that I filled out for my daughter to go to preschool here. I had to fill in a lot of information, including members of the household, parents etc.

 

I then had to list those who had permission to take my child out of school. It was made clear that unless I gave advanced, written permission, nobody else would be allowed to collect her, even another preschool mum or someone they knew, eg grandma. The details either had to be on the form, or I had to give written details to be kept in my child's file prior to the day. Whoever collects the child has to sign the day's list before the child is released to them, so they have written records every day of who collected each child.

 

I wonder, though, what would happen if there was no mention of dad, for example, on a form returned by a mother. Would they have asked for clarification? Or if I'd specified that dad must not pick up the child - would they have asked for paperwork?

[Guest]

very interesing topic . I haven't been able to participate bec in the scools i worked in either the parents had no contact with partner so picking up was not an issue and inthe 2nd school, the parents were so posh and proper that this was not an issue. But i see so many sides to this argument that it is fasinating ( when you are not directy involved)

 

i have one good friend wh husband is not involved in the parenting and another who is estraged but insisits that he needs to be involved at every step of the way. inclding on isisting on the chidren spending 3 1/2 days a week with him. I think what is important is that wwe dont forget that the chidlren at the centre of this are the most important and not adut egos.!!!!!!

[Guest]

there goes the spelling agin. Shall i just blame the computer keyboard!!!!!

[AnonyMouse_2732]

Please do!

 

I blame it for everything, including the dustbin people missing us!!!!

 

Sue

[SueFinanceManager]

Wow what a fascinating read I've just had, I missed this topic when it started so Iam just trying to get my head round all this for the first time.

 

I think on balance it is not unreasonable if a parent says the other cannot collect a child to state that we cannot comply without a court order as we would then be breaking the law. Hopefully given this information the parent might then be a little bit more forthcoming as to the ways and wherefores of the situation.

 

I feel sorry that the law makes it so hard for a couple who choose not to marry to both be proper parents without having to have one or other legally recognised, surely that's some form of discrimination. They just don't agree with the marriage bit, doesn't mean they don't both want to care for their child.

 

Oh it is all so confusing. On a brighter note, I come from a broken home and although I still see my real dad I have to say my stepfather is more of a dad to me than you could imagine, he is wonderful. Looking at it now, I'm glad my parents seperated because they would have made each other very unhappy people and I would not have great step-parents and step-siblings in my life.

 

Sue

[AnonyMouse_2732]

What a lovely positive post, Sue!

Glad your experience has been so good!

 

Sue

[AnonyMouse_3139]

About parental responsibilty if the parents arent married... I read yesterday of a man who took his daughter for a routine injection, he was known to the surgery and had been on first name terms with the doctor but as he and his partner had seperated the GP told him he couldnt be there for the injection without the mother. The surgery wouldnt tell him any of his daughters recent medical history either.

[SueFinanceManager]

Rea

 

That is staggering and all because of a little piece of paper

 

Sue

[AnonyMouse_3139]

This is getting confusing. We have a mom who's solicitor has written telling us that dad has no parental responsibility and cannot collect the child. Dads solicitor has written asking for information and dad has signed authorising the information be passed on. Lawcall, PLA legal advisors have said we cannot pass on information to dads solicitor if dad doesnt have parental resonsibility. Shouldnt dads solicitor of known? I've got to write to them now saying I cant give them what they want. I dont like this job anymore

 

And thanks for all the posts to this thread, especially the personal stories, it made very interesting reading.

[AnonyMouse_3139]

OK, I've got new info. Family support and parental involvement policy from sure start can be found here www.dfes.gov.uk/index.htm. I really am too old for this. I want a quiet life, surrounded by people who get along and sort out problems in an affable manner. I only started at playgroup to play

[Guest]

Rea

 

Reading your post, I was reminded of those old Miss World contestants: "My ambition is to travel the world working with children and sick animals, and to bring peace to all nations".

 

I think that's what we'd all like, really, isn't it? Its just a shame that life can be so awful sometimes.

 

Maz

 

I'm off to read the rest of this thread: looks very interesting indeed.

[Guest]

I was right: very interesting.

 

I think this issue is probably our biggest nightmare: the dreadful thought that in good faith we could be sending a child home to a dangerous situation.

 

On a personal note, I'm not married to my partner and for the last two years he's been a 'house husband' taking most of the burden of child care etc.

 

Our son is off on a school trip for which he needs a passport, and guess what? His Dad can't actually apply for a passport, or complete his medical form for travel in the EEC! I know it makes sense in some ways, but we forget all about his lack of legal rights until we come up against something like this!

 

We need to do a bit of research as a family: could my partner give permission for treatment in hospital for any of the children etc etc?

 

When we registered our children's births, we were told that if we subsequently married, we should go back to the registrar and complete some form or other. Not sure what rights that piece of paper confers (and I'm not sure we'll ever find out!).

 

In the meantime, its scary to think that in a vindictive moment I could effectively cut him out of my children's lives at a stroke.

 

What a strange world we live in!

 

Maz

[AnonyMouse_73]

mazlittle, we had to return to re register once we got married, which then does give the father full legal status. As you stad at the meoment, he would not be able to give consent for medical treatment and you have already come across the 'cant apply for a passport' .

 

However you used to be able to Im sure you still can, go to the court to apply for 'parental responsibility' agreement to which you both have to agree. (fathers can aply for this in the event of a separation). This would give him full rights. This certainly used to be the case, but of course there may be something newer in place now? It may be worth looking into, you dont want to wait until you have an emergency (as we did ) before you become aware of these things.

[Guest]

Thanks for that, Mundia.

 

Its quite a timely warning for us: as I said, we forgot all about the dire warnings we were given at the time of registration!

 

My middle son's response to all this (bearing in mind its his passport at issue!) was "well why don't you just get married then?".

 

Of course that would just be too easy...

 

Maz

[AnonyMouse_3139]

Maz, mundia's right. You can sort out a parental agreement. The dfes site is pretty good as a source of info on this. And bear in mind this too, if anything happened to you, the children wouldnt necessarily get to live with dad. Its an extreme point but bears thinking about. Also if you're not married and only your partners name is on the rent book or mortgage you could be homeless if anything happened to him. There is no such thing as common law partner in actual law.

[AnonyMouse_79]

Complicated, isnt it? And divorce or separation has its own problems as was the original start of this thread. My nephews and niece unfortunately fill both of the above categories and its not easy for either parent.( or the grandparents!)