AnonyMouse_2732 Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 You make a lot of sense there, Steve, as does everyone else! I think you have a really valid point in that we are all being just a bit negative with something that could be an opportunity for us to make our voices heard and feelings known. I just can't think how to move this forward, short of approaching my (extremely approachable and sympathetic ) MP! Sorry if I don't make much sense, I'm finding this quite hard. Thanks for your comments of appreciation for those of us who have been around since the year dot! Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_79 Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 I'm following this with great interest! Feel as if Im well out of my depth though as from the school perspective, or at least mine as a teacher and Im sure Im not alone, we cant cope with alot more being thrown our way, so there has to be another answer. And just for the record, as Sue seems to have had a guilty conscience, I was not offended by her comments on teachers being trained to teach and not to care and we have come to a mutual understanding that of course teachers care, just as we are all involved in the teaching even if our job title does not specifically state that! Roll on this debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_2732 Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 Ok I agree, we are all being negative at the moment. But I feel that's human nature for most of us, not very level headed Steve of course!! Not saying that you're not human Steve!!!! So, where do we start and what do we do to get this going in a more positive direction? I am alraedy composing a letter to my MP who, like Sue's, has been very sympathetic in the past. She has tackled our LEA on a number of occasions on behalf of pre-schools in Stockport. And I am sure she would be horrified that council tax is being used to keep virtually empty nurseries open. So, that's my starting point. We need to get people listening to our concerns and that means we all need to do something about it. I want my pre-school to carry on when I retire and be as successful as it is now. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 That sounds good Linda - I'm happy to contact the SureStart unit and ask them to visit this discussion and respond to some of the issues raised. Me, human? I'll sue if that libel is repeated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_2732 Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 Of course! You're just a big bad beastie!!! Having made some daft posts, I realise my remark about MP wasn't so stupid! I too am in the process of composing a letter to my nice MP. Will keep you posted. Seems like a good idea Steve. Just feels better to be doing something about it!!! Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 Contacting Surestart is a great idea Steve. And thank you for offering to do it on our behalf. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 What a good discussion, Steve it's nice to know that policy makers are accessing all the points made on this fantastic site. My head is spinning though, it seems politics and reality are "never the twain shall meet" My point being is that if you look at the history of education and childcare way back to post war we have been going round and round in circles ever since. Back in 1998, yes 6 years ago, when I did my dissertation I chose the subject of extended, wraparound care and education, one part of this research was the governments idea of Extended schools, a massive amount of funding was offered for out of school provision, run by teachers, to provide homework clubs etc. This initiative disappeared with little or no interest from the schools. Yet, here we are 6 years later with the same concept under a different name. We all have individual local experiences, worries and successes which give us different perceptions of how the Early Years agenda is developing. My concern, as I am sure is the concern of many who work, breathe, and live the profession is the way the CHILDRENS early years experiences are gambled with because of the lack of true knowledge from policy makers who's agenda is mainly political point scoring. The vast amount of new initiatives over the last decade from desirable learning outcomes to "educare" to 24/7 hrs childcare within the Private/voluntary and maintained sector is just disorganised, expensive, waste of money, chaos. I read recently that the EYDCP's are soon to be disbanded, after millions of pounds of investment, and another system set up by the LEA's, with different funding mechanisms, why? I don't know. Yes, Steve, we can look at all the training offered as positive, we can be happy that the Early Years is high on the political agenda, and has been for quite a few consecutive years, and most importantly across all political parties (at least a government change, if that happens, shouldn't change too much) but I just wish that the "new initiatives" would just STOP, and that a lot more INDEPTH REFLECTION AND EVALUATION focused on THE CHILD would take place before we all get too giddy headed and topple over. We are now quite rightly encouraged to reflect on all aspects of our work, so why can't the government. I have worked in the voluntary and private sector, for the local Authority and for colleges, been involved with PLA and had a little experience of European early years systems. I always see the best in everything, I was so pleased when funding was introduced way back with the DLO's, I thought that it was great that we were being recognised as a profession and not just a group of woman (the majority) baby sitting children. The bubble burst for me when the schools changed their entry age and it has gone down hill ever since. It is not good enough that surestart or any other "project" provides quality care and education for some, the provision should be universal, an equal chance for all children, irrespective of social/economic background. I am not yet confident that this will ever become a reality because the country's principles and values are mainly based on "academic ability" rather than the "Whole child/person", the futures creators and inventors, etc. I was once turned down for a job for my local authority because of a "lack of strategic overview" (they may have been right) but in my view I can't see any evidence of a sound stategic overview of what children, families and therefore the citizens of this country really need with regard to education, care, work/life balance, professional value for the Teachers, preschool practitioners etc. Sorry I seem to have gone off on a tangent there, but I am so disallusioned at the moment and so cross that valuable, worthy people are leaving this profession in their droves because of the lack of knowledge of the policy makers. Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_1999 Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 Well said Peggy I have laid awake at night worrying about the little treasures that have gone from us to reception. Overnight they become one of 30 without all the other changes involved this in itself must be very difficult for them. One of the problems we have is that we are losing children to nursery classes of schools as parents are told if their children don't attend the nursery they "can't guarantee there will be a place for them in reception" My MP was very helpful with the 'pre 1989 NNEB' issue so I intend to write to him again. However, think I will leave it a little while as I am one of the disillusioned lot right now. Sure that will pass though and I will go into positive overdrive and hoepfully see things in a clearer light. Oh just a quick question about the logistics of OFSTED registration. I know that you can only operate within the guidelines of your registration but do you HAVE to open for the hours/days specified?? eg if registration states 5 mornings from 9-12 can you choose to run say, 9:30 -12 or 9-11:30 or any other combination as long as you dont open before 9 or close after 12???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 I would have thought you would be ok Geraldine. Last year we opened at 8.30 am every morning. This year we are only open at that time on 3. I haven't informed OFSTED. I would assume it would only be if you wanted to extend your hours or sessions that you would need to notify them-but I could be wrong. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Hey guys my computer was on the blink for a few days and its going to take me days to catch up with all the posts. This is a really interesting topic. On my post grad cert course it was mentioned that the early years sector will be soon manned not by teachers but by ATAs (and what they used to call Nursery nurses) and early years proactitiners. Already there have been many Foundation stage usnits in schools that have 1 teacher and TAs for reception and nursery aged chidlren- with the nursery catered for by the TAs. This is going to put teachers in the school sector out of jobs and too child centered!!! to teach in KS1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_79 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Thats very reassurring, or not, Leo! Hopefully, changes in KS1 will improve the odds but I have also heard that teachers in FS will always be in need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 in reception classes Susan but not in the nursery in the near future. The question that is being asked and addressed is that how are WE as teachers enhancing provision in the nursery that is different or more effective than what pre-school/voluntary sector practitioners are providing in their settings? If the honest answer is that the provision is the same then the next step is to get (expereienced but)cheaper practitioners. bec it all boils down to economics and money in the end. This is already happening in FS units that have used the opportunity to replace the nursery teacher with a TA- having a Teacher supervise the recpetion and the overall planning, teaching cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_2732 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Hmm, Again we have the question of finances! I'm not suggesting Nursery Nurses should be paid the same as teachers, but they should be paid according to their worth! Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 don't get me wrong here sue. I'm saying that the job done is sometimes the same but yes - they are paid different amounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3735 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Geraldine, if you change your hours from those registere deven it in teh same time slot we were told you had to inform them and get ti approved. looks like you are reducing to the 2.5 hrs from 3, would be safer to confirm it with them, when we changed ours they asked for a letter of confirmation and replied quickly approving it. Inge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_2732 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 That would go along with my experience when I was working in a pre-school, although that was a while ago. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Hi chaps - Sorry it's been a while since I promised to contact the Sure Start unit about fears that the private and voluntary sector were being sidelined with the introduction of children's centres arouind the country (see earlier posts in this topic). I think Christmas got in the way! Anyway, I've had a response from them, which I'll just quote below: the Government greatly values the contribution made by the thousands of private and voluntary playgroups, pre-schools and nurseries to early education and childcare. A thriving private and voluntary sector is vital to its ambitions for the provision of free early education for all three and four year olds. It is determined that the private, voluntary and independent sector should continue to play a full part in the provision of early years education and childcare as these services are expanded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_1027 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Glad to hear that Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 Yes, it's nice to read that, but Government has a way of forgetting what it has said and just follows what it wants. I feel the strategy that the Government has planned will, in the long run have an adverse affect on small settings who dont have the resources offered by a school. If the governmment really valued small settings whether private or voluntary it would put more money into it, both for staff and resources. We are in the position of having a primary school who want a nursery, they are literally over the fence to us, if they start providing the care the government wants then Surestart can shout about how much the government values other settings all it wants, it really want stop us closing though. We really cant complete with the facilities they have compared to a church hall. I'm just glad that my children were able to spend their early years in a traditional playgroup, I worry about our future little ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_1027 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Good point Rea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 On the other hand Rea, the school settings have different ratios, an institutional feel and a pretty rigid structure. If my children were coming up to nursery age again and I'd been to see your local school and your playgroup, I know which one I'd choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 Oh, bless you kind sir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I wrote to my MP before Christmas about my concerns for the private and voluntary sector and met with her and some of my colleagues just over a week ago. She is very sympathetic to the P and V sector and admits that the government can't do what it wants to without us. She also said that many schools are not interested in taking on the care aspect of the governments vision for the future and they would be looking to existing playgroups, pre-schools and nurseries to ensure it happened. My biggest concern was with our local authority who, despite being told time and again that they have to consult with us fail to do so. We are meeting with our MP and representatives from the LEA to discuss our concerns. Our EYDCP has now disbanded, which I know has happened to many others. Their idea of consultation in the future is to have an annual conference. She has decided this is inadequate and so she is going to set up quarterly meetings and will attend herself, and any other local MPs who are interested. I am more than happy with her response and maybe we all need to bring this to the attention of our MPs. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Reading between the lines of the governments long term visions I get a sense of deja vu... 1998 I was fortunate to spend time in Sweden, visiting kindergartens attached to schools. 8am-6pm care and education - they called their curriculum a pedagogue, the staff were qualified to degree level. The facilities were fantastic, outdoor adventures ( not just outdoor play), "Wet rooms" not just a water tray. Tha age range was 18 mths - 6 yrs. If, and it is a big IF, we get to be anything near like their provision it would be great. Very child centrered, little formative assessment or pressure to meet targets. The staff were all motivated and well paid. The visit to the school was just as inspiring the class room for the 6 yr olds was just like a preschool but with bigger equipment / space.. a whole art / messy play room, a whole role play room.. construction bricks were now construction planks requiring team effort to construct with.... I also visited the college where childcare staff are trained, their training covered a wider spectrum of social issues, psycology, and with an age range 0-80...very interesting. So there is hope, looking at a different european perspective was certainly an eye opener. Does "Pedagogue" and "Degree level early years practitioners" ring any bells with your recent media reading? Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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