A Man In Childcare

[AnonyMouse_13453]

I also wonder, and I'll get shot down for saying this probably, but men in a predominantly female environment may find it a bit threatening or not wish to engage in female banter. I have worked in schools with one male only, or only one other as well as the HT, and they have kept out of the staff room for a lot of the time.

 

 

I can definitely agree with this. When I was working in Primary school, we had male teachers (only ever one at a time) and they DID complain about staffroom chat 'groan, diets and shoes again!', but only when they were totally relaxed and comfortable with us all, after about a year or so of being there. Up until that point they did find things to do in their classroom rather than enter the staffroom

[AnonyMouse_1195]

I think any change in attitudes will have to come from the families of the children themselves where parents ask for men to be in settings. There would have to be quite an organised campaign raising awareness of the value of that for children. That would take quite a bit of planning and Government commitment.

[Guest]

I would love to see more men in daycare settings but I think attitudes need to change as well as pay etc.

I say this from a personal experience which my son had when he was 17 (he's now 21) He began as a volunteer at a local preschool as he wanted to work with children and possibly train as a teacher. The manager was so impressed with him that she offered him a paid job and the chance to do nvq training. My son reallly loved the job but he found that some of the parents/carers (all women) of the children were making some unpleasant comments - one being 'why would a normal 18 year old lad want to work with children'!!

There were around 9 other staff (all women) and although he got on well with some of them, at least 4 were particularly nasty and spiteful to him. These were not young girls but women in their 30s. I truly believe that there was an element of jealousy as the children all loved him being there and all wanted to be in his group (supervisor's words not mine).

Because of the lack of support from staff and parents, in the end he decided it wasnt worth all the backstabbing and he left and went back to college to train as a computer analyst.

I feel that he would have made a great career working with children but the prejudice he faced put him off. I wonder how many others have been affected in a similar way?

 

Sally

[AnonyMouse_8466]

I truly believe that there was an element of jealousy as the children all loved him being there and all wanted to be in his group (supervisor's words not mine).

I was talking about this with a friend yesterday - whenever I've seen a male in an early years setting they are always surrounded by children. This is whether they've been a 'grown up' or a lad from secondary school on work experience.

 

I'm going to use the 'r' word here. Wonder what research has been done into why so few men work in early years? If there hasn't been much, who would fund me to do some?

 

Maz

[AnonyMouse_13453]

I can definitely agree with that! Whenever my son came into Preschool he was always surrounded very quickly. He did things with them and made different assumptions as to abilities and what was do-able. Most of the toys were his anyway so he knew what to do with them - and enjoyed playing with them again! He made funicular railways with Duplo, cranes and pulleys and tall towers that had us quivering 'ooh is it safe....' but he knew what he was doing and they loved him!

 

As you found out too, he was popular, and they all wanted to be with him which meant that the rest of us could do the boring stuff like cleaning trays and stuff!

 

He's gone into robotics now, sadly

[Guest]

As you say, it would be interesting to hear a man's viewpoint - I'm sure DaddyDayCare will oblige us with his views before long.

 

Well, I won't go on too much right now - I have far too much to say on the issue...

 

What I will say, however, is that many assume finances are the main problem whereas, in reality, I think it is more to do with social stigma and the vocal female minority in the "playground mafia" who tend to view men in such roles as primary carers, playworkers, childminders etc with suspicion and in some cases utter contempt.

 

I have been the primary carer for my children ever since my daughter was born. It has been by far the most rewarding time of my life and yet at the same time the period in my life in which I have had to face the most horrendous prejudice from the most unlikely sources.

 

I have always stood up to this kind of behaviour, no matter who perpetrates it. Many people feel unable to do so and as such lose heart in the battle to be accepted in the childcare arena.

 

Until the nasty, sniping attitudes and actions of the few (but very influential) mothers who take great joy in claiming superiority over their male counterparts are challenged, things are highly unlikely to change. These types are the source of the majority of gossip, laying the foundations of suspicion in the minds of society as a whole when men enter the traditional world of the woman.

 

I will stop for now, before I rant...

 

DDC.

[AnonyMouse_8466]

Until the nasty, sniping attitudes and actions of the few (but very influential) mothers who take great joy in claiming superiority over their male counterparts are challenged, things are highly unlikely to change. These types are the source of the majority of gossip, laying the foundations of suspicion in the minds of society as a whole when men enter the traditional world of the woman.

What about how you're received into the setting's team though? And the wider workforce - how do you feel you are perceived by fellow professionals?

 

Maz

[Guest]

Interesting...........................only from the experiences of a male friend of mine, I would definately say that men do face prejudice.

The main prejudice for my friend came from professionals, for example, one day he went along to a training seminar ( Code of Practice), at the venue there were a few rooms, he entered the correct room, and whilst looking around for a seat the trainer came up to him and wait for it.....................................asked him if he was lost, and what room was he looking for!!

He worked in 3 settings over a 2 year period, moving due to the prejudice he faced (which really didn't help as he was studying for his NVQ 3).

He used to ring me for advice about the prejudice he faced, he wanted an 'outsiders' view as to whether it was him who was being over sensitive about certain situations / challenges from other staff and management, or whether he had cause for concern. From what he described of many, rather than a few situations, he was definately treated unprofessionally. I would even say that each time he left a setting he could easily have had grounds for 'constructive dismissal'. I did suggest once that he took this further but he said he was just 'ground down' by it all.

He is a lovely person, a single father, and he has what I call 'it' (you've either got 'it' or you haven't when it comes to being on a childs wavelength, that something that cannot be taught).

I offered him a job in my preschool but unfortunately it was too far for him to travel to.

 

He now works in a totally different job (I shan't say what as it may compromise his identity). I just think it is a real loss to the profession and the children.

 

We wouldn't tolerate this with Racism, so I do ask myself, why do we tolerate this sexism? My answer I suppose would be 'ignorance' and say that there is a need for more training for all professionals to become more aware of their own prejudices and sexist attitudes and to consider ways in which to recognise them and change them.

 

Peggy

[AnonyMouse_1195]

I totally agree Peggy and what a shame that your friend was treated in that way, in what could amount to workplace bullying. We have to challenge our own prejudices if we actually want the number of men working with young children to increase. The usual assumption is that it is women who are discriminated against, especially in terms of pay and promotion. Those jobs traditionally being done by women being the lower paid ones. In the case of men in childcare the 'sexism' seems to be the other way around, and men are regarded with suspicion. How sad for everyone that is.

To change these attitudes will need lots of awareness training, and a demand for more men in the EY's to give children both male and female role models. A model of a male caring for and having fun with children is important, and especially so for those who are brought up without a father, or only see men in an abusive relationship.

[Guest]

What about how you're received into the setting's team though? And the wider workforce - how do you feel you are perceived by fellow professionals?

 

Maz

 

As far as my professional experiences (so far) are concerned, they have been mostly extremely positive. There has been the odd occasion when, similar to Peggy's friend, I have walked into a room on a training course and had strange looks from those already seated, but nothing more sinister than that. I won't mention Tanya Byron yet again...

 

It probably helps, certainly in the professional arena, that I have been around the sector for a while as a very active (and, believe it or not, vocal) committee member prior to becoming a practitioner myself so many of the people that I come across have got used to having me around over the years. My current role seems to have been perceived by most as the next logical step and a bonus for our setting.

 

That is not to say that there is no professional prejudice out there. I have just been fortunate enough to avoid it thus far. I do feel that the problem lies mainly beyond the workforce and is more embedded in society as a whole.

 

DDC

[Guest]

'That is not to say that there is no professional prejudice out there. I have just been fortunate enough to avoid it thus far. I do feel that the problem lies mainly beyond the workforce and is more embedded in society as a whole.

 

I'm pleased to hear that you haven't experienced what my friend did, maybe that is because of your own confidence and ability to challenge attitudes. Trying not to be pedantic but 'the workforce' is 'society', following our cultural attitudes towards men as childcarers.

I'm not even sure that it is just about 'suspicious' attitudes in terms of childrens safety/welfare, it is wider than that, ignorance, fear of maybe men taking the promotions, ignorance of how men 'think', their differences, the 'Men are from mars' type thing.

 

In countries such as Sweden etc men are more equality represented in childcare, and I think this is partly the reason that the children in these countries don't live with the 'fear of risk' factor that children do here. Their childhood experiences are much more active, outdoor and 'with nature'. They don't view climbing trees (for example) as a risk but as a positive challenge.

 

Now I've made the assumption that it is 'men' who promote such activities compared to women.

 

Peggy

[Guest]

Trying not to be pedantic but 'the workforce' is 'society', following our cultural attitudes towards men as childcarers.

 

I would have to disagree with you there. I feel that there is an element of deeper understanding within the body of professionals in our sector of the need for positive male role models in childcare roles than you would generally find in the wider society.

 

Maybe this is down to the fact that we receive more information and training on the benefits of such things than the average person on the street would. Perhaps I am wrong but my personal experience tells me otherwise.

 

Cheers,

DDC.

[AnonyMouse_19782]

There is an uplifting letter from a male in childcare in the NW this week

[AnonyMouse_8466]

There is an uplifting letter from a male in childcare in the NW this week

Yes I agree - but he isn't working directly with children now is he? He seems to have taken a sideways move into training and assessing. I'd like to hear more about that decision - what was more attractive about teaching and assessing adults than continuing to work in a setting?

 

Maz

[Steve]

Pay?

[AnonyMouse_8466]

Pay?

Well, elsewhere in Nursery World, I spied a headline "Pay gap cure to start at nursery".

 

I won't repeat the whole article, but basically it is about a new report by the Women and Work commission. It found that women are paid 22% less per hour than men, and the gap has increased since 2007.

 

The report says that 'occupational segregation' begins at a young age, and that the way to break this down is to challenge the 'jobs for the girls' mentality, apparently. The report calls on Government to "publish guidance for teachers and childcare workers on how to ensure that children under five are not limited by stereotypes of what boys and girls can do"

 

However, its not all our fault apparently. The report also says "the DCSF must consider what can be done to increase the wages of childcare workers whilst ensuring that childcare remains affordable. In particular, driving forward the "professionalisation" of the childcare sector given the majority of its employees are female and the sector struggles to attract men"

 

I lay all that on the table without further comment. I'm going to find the research paper online to see what else it says. You can see for yourself here.

 

Maz

aka Mrs Angry of Maidenhead

Edited August 6, 2009 by HappyMaz

[AnonyMouse_19782]

Nothing worse that "The Maz" on the warpath.

 

Did I read this right? Is it suggesting that because we are females, we couldn't possibly be professional?!

[AnonyMouse_8466]

Did I read this right? Is it suggesting that because we are females, we couldn't possibly be professional?!

Well you might say that but I couldn't possibly comment!

 

I'm trying to keep calm, Panders! I am printing off the report for a good read over lunch. Where have I put the indigestion tablets?

 

Maz

[AnonyMouse_8466]

Since Steve suggested I visit the home page on a different thread, I went to have a look and found kiwiman's article on men in childcare. For those of you who don't visit the home page, you can find it here!

 

Have printed it out to have a read over lunch. Which hasn't materialised yet!

 

Maz

[AnonyMouse_13453]

Dear Angry of Maidenhead,

 

If you want to draft a letter for us all to print out and sign we can send it to our respective MPs!

[AnonyMouse_8466]

If you want to draft a letter for us all to print out and sign we can send it to our respective MPs!

What would you want the letter to say?

[Guest]

I've just read the article in question and I interpreted it in the same way as Panders and Maz. It also annoyed me that it states "It calls on the Government to publish guidance .....on how to ensure that children under five are not limited by stereotypes of what boys and girls can do". I appreciate it might be my setting (and yours from the discussions on here) but don't we do just that! We never, ever restrict what a child can do, say, pretend due to sexual stereotypes, and I'm sure this stance is supported somewhere by some guidance already (EYFS must say the same, surely?). Did the report writers not look at that at all?

 

Can I be Mrs Angry too please?

[AnonyMouse_13453]

Oh dear, seems like the article has inflamed you all - must have a look at it

[Guest]

Hey all. Thought I'd throw my two-pennies into the ring.

 

I'm not sure that I particularly agree with some of the points in the report above. It seems to me that the emphasis shouldn't be on breaking down stereotypes as much as raising the status and pay of certain jobs. By all means give men and women chances to work in different sectors if they want, but as far as education is concerned don't move women out of childcare and into better paid jobs - just give them better pay! Also I would agree it is insulting to suggest that we need (more) guidance for challenging girl/boy stereotypes in the Early Years, surely this is the one age when they are most challenged.

 

Secondly I keep changing my mind about how much pay is the biggest issue for men going into chilcare. There are very few men in primary schools and yet we can earn a decent wage - I certainly earn more than a lot of my mates working in other sectors. I do think outside perception is the bigger issue.

 

I may be lucky that I have never received any negative responses in EY, and I am in a similar position to DaddyDayCare in that people in the LA soon get to know you as I'm the only man. That said, is there is a different perception of men in schools than PVIs - only guessing. When I did teacher training, the only other man on my course dropped out because of parental response and comments - he was in his 40s.

[AnonyMouse_15046]

Also from the Women and Work Comission report;

 

Gender stereotyping to be included in overall Ofsted inspection judgement by the end of the next financial year (2011);

 

We want to restate our original recommendation, which is that DCSF must prepare and disseminate national guidance for teachers and early years childcare workers on how to ensure that the horizons of children in the three to five age group are not limited by stereotypes of what girls and boys can do.... the Department should also set out clear advice on how this national guidance is to be used, how they will monitor its take-up and what action they will take if the guidance is not adhered to.

 

I can see that we need to make sure that gender stereotypes are challenged from the very earliest age and that a good place to support this is in early years settings. However I feel that it is already covered by the ethos of the EYFS and that Ofsted would soon pick up on any issues which arose in an inspection. I wasn't aware that we were failing children in this area at the moment. Doesn't this seem a little heavy handed?

 

We will never get away from the fact that women tend to be recruited into early years settings when they have spent some time at home caring for small children. Many of these families have been managing on a single income for some time and can therefore afford to accept the lower wage. Until the issue of pay in the early years is addressed the gender balance will not change.

[Guest]

Until the issue of pay in the early years is addressed the gender balance will not change.

 

It goes way beyond that Alison. The whole setup in this country is aimed at women taking time out from work when their child is born, with men having a "couple of weeks" off to help out in the early days. It is perhaps this arrangement more than anything that dictates which partner becomes the designated "breadwinner" in the relationship.

 

Were the maternity/paternity leave models looked at and made more flexible, I suspect that doors would start to open for more men to take the option of childcare over full-on career. This, subsequently, may well lead to more men moving in to Early Years settings.

 

I am sure that I have read somewhere (will have to look in more detail) that certain European countries are much more flexible with leave arrangements for both men and women following the birth of a child and, not surprisingly, have more gender-balance in their workforce.

 

Just a thought...

[AnonyMouse_15046]

Were the maternity/paternity leave models looked at and made more flexible, I suspect that doors would start to open for more men to take the option of childcare over full-on career. This, subsequently, may well lead to more men moving in to Early Years settings.

 

That's a different (and very valid) way of looking at it. We should not have a system that dictates which parent is primary carer.

 

On the other hand childcare employers should be able to choose from the whole workforce rather than being restricted to those who can afford to be on a lower wage whatever their gender.

 

Really we should be able to expect equality in maternity/paternity rights AND a level of pay which recognises the skills and responsibility early years practitioners have.

 

Maybe that what we should all be saying to our MPs......

[AnonyMouse_8466]

Really we should be able to expect equality in maternity/paternity rights AND a level of pay which recognises the skills and responsibility early years practitioners have.

I wonder how much this would cost, and how would you fund it?

 

Maz

[AnonyMouse_1195]

I still wonder if pay is really the issue because the same problem exists in Primary schools, and pay is not the issue there. BTW I'm not saying pay shouldn't be better, just pointing out that pay in schools is good in comparison but men are in very short supply.

[AnonyMouse_8466]

I still wonder if pay is really the issue because the same problem exists in Primary schools, and pay is not the issue there. BTW I'm not saying pay shouldn't be better, just pointing out that pay in schools is good in comparison but men are in very short supply.

I agree Jacquie - I think perhaps Steve originally suggested 'pay' as being the reason the chap in nursery world had moved out of a pre-school setting and into training/assessment. If pay is going to be an issue for men, it is probably more likely to be in a PVI setting rather than in primary, I'd have thought.

 

AlisonP makes a very valid point - our early years workforce should not be made up of only those people whose 'other halfs' are sufficiently well paid to subside them to pursue their chosen career.

 

Maz