AnonyMouse_1195 Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Yes I realised what Steve was referring to, I was being more general in my response. The whole issue is enormous really isn't it, as all these things are in the 'melting pot' so to speak? A huge change in societies attitudes is going to be required to start with. I must say I really enjoy these meaty discussions on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_8466 Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Yes I realised what Steve was referring to, I was being more general in my response. Sorry Jacquie! The problem is (or one of the problems, I should probably say) is that there are probably as many views as there are contributors. And since we're all individuals, each male who doesn't join the profession or leaves it will have a slightly different reason for doing so. Hopefully discussions like this can help distill the views so we can begin to see the wood for the trees. As a woman I feel a bit of a bystander in the argument really - yet I know that if we are to get more men in childcare we all need to work together to make it happen. Or is that really arrogant of me - perhaps the men in question would like a little corner of early years that they can call their own! Do they see this as 'their' issue and would they like us to stop pontificating? On the one hand I like the fact that on the Forum we only need to disclose our gender if we choose to, yet for the purposes of a debate like this I would like to know where (or rather who!) all the men are and how they feel about it! Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I would have to disagree with you there. I feel that there is an element of deeper understanding within the body of professionals in our sector of the need for positive male role models in childcare roles than you would generally find in the wider society. Maybe this is down to the fact that we receive more information and training on the benefits of such things than the average person on the street would. Perhaps I am wrong but my personal experience tells me otherwise. Cheers, DDC. I understand what you are saying but I still think that the body of professionals in our sector, the majority being female, do have different expectations from a male worker than their female counterparts. For example that a male worker would be more sporty, would want to progress to a leadership role (compared to some 'female' colleagues who are happy to say stay at NVQ level 2, in an 'assistants' role), would be really good with the children teaching woodwork etc. I would suggest that females within the workforce do have stereotypical expectations of male workers. There are exceptions of course, but I would guess that this would be prevelant throughout the workforce. I think this is mainly due to the lack of experience with working with male colleagues who are on the same level in terms of roles and responsibilities. I certainly don't think you are wrong in that professionals understand the qualities that men in childcare bring, I'm just not sure that all men in the sector have had your positive experiences. Peggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I certainly don't think you are wrong in that professionals understand the qualities that men in childcare bring, I'm just not sure that all men in the sector have had your positive experiences. That is a very fair point, Peggy. I guess I hadn't looked at it that way as I have, within the working environment, always been treated equally. There is a natural tendancy within our team at Playgroup to gravitate towards the activities that "fit" best with our personalities, but I am lucky in that the people I work with are non-stereotypical females. This really is a minefield isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 My oldest son used to love helping me at pre-school, went to Grammar school and then on to University. When he was doing his work experience for his degree he did it back at his old grammar school. He was told by one of his Tutors at the school that he was not academic enough for senior school and that he would be better in lower age groups. He was doing a Sport Development degree!!! If our mentality towards what men should and shouldn't be doing doesn't change the pay and all the other problems will never be over come. Why do we think that men can only teach older children. It is across the board that we stereo type, from Senior school to women to fathers who think it is wrong for a boy to play with dolls. I know my son would have considered teaching but unfortunately the comments of his very up themselves teachers at his old school put him off. He now has 3 children and is a brilliant father and would have been a good role model, to work with any age group. I had a dad at pre-school who stayed at home to look after his children because his wife's job was better paid. He used to volunteer with us and loved it but the other mothers used to think it was very strange and ask very awkward questions in front of him as though he was deaf. The general public or "society" as a whole needs to change their perception of men. We used to have feminism can we now not get rid of "macho" in our vocabulary. We live in hope. Steph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Definitly agree with the need for more men to be in early years. When I visited a childcare class in the local secondary school a few years ago there was one boy in there. The teacher on introducing the class said 'This is our young man, he's here because his mom made him come'. He was highly embarresed so I told him how wonderful it was that he was thinking of using his skills with young children. If thats the attitude that prevails in all schools its no wonder we dont get young men flocking to us. Pay in EY is definitly a point too. I used to pick up around £85 a week as playleader, the same amount I've just written an invoice for for a job hubby did in 1 hour. He's highly skilled but so are many in the EY sector, and even the less skilled are caring for children, not exactly a low skilled task. I absolutley have no answers to any of this but can only hope that as a society we work it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 We were considering taking a male assistant on just over the summer period. We all thought it would be really good to have a male role model, however the opportunity fell through. Had we taken him on we were advised, by member of an official body, not to allow the male assistant to be alone with the children, change nappies or take to the toilet. This was even though he had an enhanced CRB! This seemed discrimnatory to me and meant that he would not be able to work as a full member of the team as he would be unable to carry out certain fundamental areas of the job. It was felt that it was in his interests not to leave him in a position where he could be accused of any wrong doing. This is another obstacle for men in childcare! There is a preconception that men can't be trusted with our children and many men are unwilling to be put in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I agree that this is often seen as an obstacle for men in the profession, but I am astonished that an advisor from somewhere official repeated such nonsense to you. I think it is difficult for settings to challenge advisors like this, coming as they do from somewhere official, but when even they have such attitudes, how can we hope to overcome the same problems with parents and others. We had a male volunteer for a very short time (unfortunately) and on the times I can encourage him to (twist his arm really) my other half helps us out too. The reaction of the children to their presence is very different and it is really good to see too. For example my husband came in on our last day of term and one child, my little limpet, was suddenly no where to be seen. When I went to look he was outside, running up and down like a whirling dervish, shouting, being cheeky and laughing his head off with my husband. I can't say what it was that got him behaving this way as certain staff members do run around and play in very similar ways to the way my husband was interacting with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 We used to have 3 dads come in and do parent help and the kids (especially the boys!) loved it! I think the dads did too! They were centre of attention. My new setting has a chair who is a "house husband" and he seems fantastic! very involved in all aspects of the pre-school...even down to gardening. Cant belive what the advisor said about nappy chamging...surely thats discrimination? If I was him I would be furious that anyone official was saying this about me as it may put people off hiring him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 That is indeed extremely discriminating, to the extent that if he were taken on board, he wouldn't have been able to perform his job at 100%. How is that even justifiable? I've been (un)fortunate enough to have colleagues who are very enthusiastic about me changing nappies, especially the pooey ones. We were considering taking a male assistant on just over the summer period. We all thought it would be really good to have a male role model, however the opportunity fell through. Had we taken him on we were advised, by member of an official body, not to allow the male assistant to be alone with the children, change nappies or take to the toilet. This was even though he had an enhanced CRB! This seemed discrimnatory to me and meant that he would not be able to work as a full member of the team as he would be unable to carry out certain fundamental areas of the job. It was felt that it was in his interests not to leave him in a position where he could be accused of any wrong doing. This is another obstacle for men in childcare! There is a preconception that men can't be trusted with our children and many men are unwilling to be put in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Had we taken him on we were advised, by member of an official body, not to allow the male assistant to be alone with the children, change nappies or take to the toilet. This was even though he had an enhanced CRB! Now were that to happen to me, the person involved would no longer be in a job. That is, quite simply, disgraceful. What "official body" was this exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Now were that to happen to me, the person involved would no longer be in a job. That is, quite simply, disgraceful. What "official body" was this exactly? I prefer not to say just in case! I have found it very interesting to hear what other people think, my thoughts were the same! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 We were considering taking a male assistant on just over the summer period. We all thought it would be really good to have a male role model, however the opportunity fell through. Had we taken him on we were advised, by member of an official body, not to allow the male assistant to be alone with the children, change nappies or take to the toilet. This was even though he had an enhanced CRB! This seemed discrimnatory to me and meant that he would not be able to work as a full member of the team as he would be unable to carry out certain fundamental areas of the job. It was felt that it was in his interests not to leave him in a position where he could be accused of any wrong doing. This is another obstacle for men in childcare! There is a preconception that men can't be trusted with our children and many men are unwilling to be put in that situation. My husband and I have recieved similar 'advice' from our fostering agency. The advice being that I should deal with our foster daughters 'personal' needs (bath / shower, tucking into bed etc) and not my husband. Their reason being to reduce any chance of allegations against my husband of innapropriatte behaviour. For those of you who know me you will not be surprised that I (and my husband) have consistently challenged this 'policy'. Our argument being that if a child is going to make a false allegation then they would do this irrespective of day to day parenting style. More importantly is that all our foster children (and any child for that matter) needs to experience positive, safe, parenting irrespective of gender. ie: The parents' role in all aspects of bringing up children should not be differentiated in terms of gender (including substitute parents such as foster carers/ childcare professionals, nurses etc etc). We should not encrouch such 'careful' interaction with children for fear of allegation, this attitude, I believe, is alienating children from us and depriving them of a wholly rounded, holistic upbringing (and/or educational ) experience. If an advisor said to a worker, don't let the Jew, black person, Indian, etc change a nappy, there would be an outcry of disbelief at such blatant discrimination, it would not even be open to discussion, it would be challenged immediately, yet if this advice is given in terms of a persons gender (male), there is an outcry from some, but sadly all too often a resigned acceptance, shown through the fact that this advice is rarely challenged or admonished, but is actually discussed. Off my soap box now. Peggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_4544 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 We have a male teacher who moved into early years last year and stated that he won't go into the girl's changing room at the swimming pool when they are getting ready before or after their lesson and he won't clean up any child who has an accident. How sad that someone should feel this way..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Way to go Peggy! Good for you. There's going to be a whole generation of children growing up in foster care thinking men can't care for children. Are we heading back to Victorian times where men go out to work and just see their children for a quick peck on the cheek before bed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 As a Male Practitioner i'm very interested in the inbalance of men in the early years. I have worked in the field for nearly 7 years now and have come across all types of discrimination (both from staff and Parents').I used to find it quite challenging at times at trying to educate the small percentage of narrow minded individuals that not all men are there to harm children. I feel really pssionate about this subject and would be interested in helping in any way possible!! As a result of the lack of men in childcare, i have decided to implement my dissertation on gender.I'm finding it difficult to condense my hypothesis in order to synthesis my findings. I have come up with 'why are there so few male role models in schools?' and 'How to encourage men into the early years?' Both hypothesis are broad and as it's an action reserach module, changes have to be made. I would be really greatful of any pointers or any good books,journals or other current sources. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Hi Guys. Bit late on the conversation i know (been enjoying hls too much) I am a man working in a reception class. Have been for 4 years now after completing my degree in the advanced study of early years. Early years is the only sector i have worked in and i love it. In my primary school i am one of 2 men. The other is in year 6. I must say over my four years employment i do not feel like i have ever suffered any discrimaination from staff or parents. Infact both parents and children seem to love the fact that their teacher is a man and they respond to it really well. Anyway if i can be of any assistance in any way please let me know. I feel very passionate about this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Hi All Just back from a long earned holiday and it is heartening to see that the discussion has carried on!! It is also interesting to note that you have begun to unpick a few of the issues from the myriad which exist within this can of worms!! Once I have sorted out the one-or-two e-mails in my system i will be contacting those people who have directly contacted me to form the working group, so this is a last call for anyone interested in contributing to contact me directly on my e-mail r.j.harty@uel.ac.uk (I can not work through a discussion forum to do this so need e-mail contacts) Happydays1 - if you wish to contact me directly I would be pleased to offer some guidance with your dissertation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) Hi All Just a quick update on where we are at the moment. We now have a working party of 9 convened and we are working towards a summit meeting early next year. This is still in the very early stages and I will keep you posted as we go along. In the mean time we need to build our networks, how you can help is to put the feelers out and find the men who work with children in the early years in your area and promote the idea of a summit. You can give them my e-mail (r.j.harty@uel.ac.uk) if they want more information or want to become involved Richard Edited September 17, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) For those who have yet to discover it....... http://www.menteach.org Edited September 17, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Such an interesting topic! Back in 1998 as chair of our local pre-school I had the opportunity to employ a man as a pre-school assistant. The Supervisor gave me a strange look when I said we'd arranged an interview but he was fantastic. My son still remembers him (just) the parents loved him, so did I (he called me boss - in front of my husband!) Sadly he had to leave due to the pay or lack of it. Now as supervisor of the same pre-school I would love to be able to employ a man, but the part time hours we are able to offer and the rates of pay just do not suit. To be honest they don't really suit me either! Following this thread with interest Rachel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Just wanted to share this little gem. We had a PGCE student arrive on a visit last week to work in Y6. It's fair to say he threw himself in wholeheartedly on his first day and was last to leave at 6pm. Anyway he was talking to my colleagues about how he would feel working in a female dominated workplace and was told how much girl talk (and teasing) that I have to put up with as the only man in school. His response... 'Well he's not a real man as he only works in Reception'. If that's the attitdue of a 20 something male coming to work in a primary school I wonder what hope there is. Needless to say I'm not sure how eye-to-eye we'll see when we actually meet properly when he starts his placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_8466 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 His response... 'Well he's not a real man as he only works in Reception'. Doesn't your heart just sink when you read something like that - let alone when you hear it said about yourself! Really when you think about it he's lucky not to have found himself on the wrong end of a disciplinary for a discriminatory comment like that - I think you have to know your setting's ethos pretty well before you can feel safe to express yourself in those terms. Perhaps you should invite him into your classroom to see for himself what happens there - and encourage him to take part in a bit of food old reflective practice to see if he still believes that 'real men don't teach reception'. Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 What a fantastic thread...so much to take in and don't really know where to begin to comment except to say that I have so many positive memories of men from my primary school years (we had a high percentage) to my training days when my pre school placement had a fantastic supply teacher, originally reception I think, who had the children absolutely enthralled - by just being there!! I've worked alongside a male nursery assistant, again the children absolutely loved him and the parents too but sadly the pay couldn't sustain his mortgage and he returned to his previous job. I would even commit to saying most of my fondest memories surround the male teachers...but I couldn't say what the magical ingredient was... I grew up with both parents so it wasn't lack of a father figure etc. (interesting thinking about this cos i remember being terrified of men before school to the point i couldn't go to parties, swimming pools etc. There was little preschool provision in my area so i can only assume not coming into contact with men on a daily basis, other than my dad, was detrimental to me....and i can see it with some of the children i care for now, sadly) I believe, particulalry now more than ever in our deteriorating society and eroding values, that our youngest children need male role models. Alongside their wealth of knowledge, skills and expertise, men also 'bring something to the table' that women just can't...as many posts have suggested before me 'the limpet becoming the whirling dervish' for example. I can't remember the programme name but i recall some statement along the line of 'children devoid of positive male attention/role model are at significant risk of becoming a statistic of crime/poor education in teenage years'. How proven this was, I'm not sure and I would imagine there would be all sorts of other deficits in the children's lives, not just a lack of male attention. The government has a cracking opportunity to kill many birds with few stones just by addressing the gaps and encouraging men into early years. I was lead to believe the introduction of childcare tax credits was to be the start of tackling the pay issue by allowing settings to increase fees, therefore pay staff better, but still making childcare affordable/subsidised to parents... and we all know what happened to that idea - !! We had a PGCE student....His response... 'Well he's not a real man as he only works in Reception' Poor misguided fellow - don't think he waould last a week in early years, would he...doesn't he know people in EY are Superheroes and its the most rewarding time Don't know if this needs one or a hundred answers/solutions but it needs to be conquered - for the men, the underpaid women and most of all the children...our countries future after all!! and breathe...!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Hi All For those who are interested we have established a web site at http://miecuk.wetpaint.com/ Please visit the site and join the group - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_8422 Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 If anyone is at all interested, I have just started my blog 'A Man in Childcare' here - http://www.paintpotsnursery.co.uk/blog/ Very early days but I am hoping it will develop into a representative profile of my everyday activities with our children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Just read your blog, well done. I smiled partly through the things the children said, the film crew said and partly in thinking of the comment made about Hammered. People really have no idea do they? Oh, and the Men in childcare site could do with more promoting just in case you have any influence. Well done, looking forward to eeing the DVD, when can we expect it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Hi just had a read through this thread and I must say I found it too be very interesting. I myself am a 21 year old male who works in a Nursery with the older children 3-5's I love working with the kids and my colleagues. I find that things that deter me are the pay its not exactly brilliant. sometimes being discriminated by parents for being the guy but Im pleased to say a majority of them love me being in the room and have even informed me of changes in there children at home since I went up to that room. before I worked in the 2-3's and I have been working in childcare for about 5 years now. But 4 at this particular setting. The thing I find is that the money isn't what matters to me the most its the kids. Making sure they have that male role model and consistency. A child came up too me the other day his parents have just split up and asked me if I was gonna come back after I said goodbye as my shift had ended. My heart just sank at that comment and of course I said that I would be back the next day which I did. but I will be watching this thread with interest and if anyone wishes to chat please feel free to PM me anything. Oh and one more thing I actually find the staffroom at work to be another fun part of the day with all the things I have heard in my time at this placement I could write a book lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Hi HMS, welcome to the forum I think the money thing is just how someone else described it, that the man couldnt pay his mortgage. Not a way to go on is it, but glad you do it for the love, not much left over than that is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Thank you Rea. Yes your absolutely right I think another thing that I forgot to mention is all the paperwork that is involved from Learning Journeys and Observations to Nappy/Sleep Charts and all the rest. I hate paperwork I won't deny that its my biggest weak point but my strength is my bond with the kids. Probably because I act like a goofball in the garden and just geniunely a funny person for the kids. From changing my voice at Story times to teaching them Makaton which I throughly enjoy doing with them and even sitting and chatting with them about what they did at the weekend or the night before. Childcare can be so rewarding in ways without the pay being an issue you just have to look for it. Also I mentioned the Parents and how some can be funny towards men the way I found to get through a parent is through there kids what someone once told me if there child loves you and goes home and talks about you then the parent usually starts to warm too you too and then you can build those ever important bridges of a relationship with a parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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