Guest Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) HI, I know that some how you can make posts private and only viewable for the members on here but i don't know how to do that, i hope that this is for members here, but if not could someone move it please. well as the title suggests i am facing disciplinarary action, again..... i received a phone call this morning to say that i was not to go into work, and that i was suspended on fullpay. i received a letter three hours explaining that i was being accused of the following: obtaining money by deception by claiming unauthorised hours and pressurising and authorising a junior member of staff to drive on nursery business with a child in the care of the nursery without valid insurance. now they both sound bad...... the second is founded and correct, tho not in that context.... background ~ staff in our toddler room and tweenie room had fund raised for a trip to the farm, the plan was that we would hire a mini bus and that the owner would drive, i would then take children in my car too. on the day the owner was ill... hence disapointed staff and children and parents. our senior member of staff explained that her dad could drive the mini bus ~ this was discussed with one of the owners and she agreed to this, explaining that the hire vehicle would be covered by the insurance and so would the driver. the children would be covered on nursery public liability insurance..... because the owner could not go i had to ask the senior to go, which meant their was one last seat for a staff member (due to the fact that the senior took a seat, when the owner would have been in the drivers seat).... i told the staff that one of them would have to stay. at this stage the junior staff member said she was happy to drive her car, she understood that she would not be covered for business use as she was nominating to driver herself and she was happy with this.... she certanly was not pressurised by me.... because we had to take our senior i had to cover her with our deputy, our deputy has a little boy at nursery and since she was covering her son was to come in with her. now the junior member of staff in question at this time asked if we would be in ratio if we took the deputies little boy too. i told her we would be, but explained their was not room on the bus or in my car.... she then said that she would take him in her car... she received verbal permission of the deputy to take the child, deputy was clear that he would be covered on the juniors personal insuarance on this trip and not on nursery insurance. now hindsight is brilliant ~ i should have said no, should have cancelled the trip.... but i was pressured by parents and staff to make the trip go ahead, still no excuse i know..... but the junior in question was more than happy to drive, two staff that i know off will substantiate this ~ the problem is, one of them is my sister, the other is my friend...... the trip was two months ago, yet this accusation came now...... i accept i was in the wrong, but i acted on inpulse, made a decision that was wrong.... i am only a person.... yet i feel i may loose my job over this.... nowhere do we have a transportation of children policy... but then again, as manager that is probably my fault, even tho the owners wrote the policies..... the first accusation, i have no idea off.... i have been provided with no eveidence of this so do not know where it has come from... i assume it relates to 'time back', where if we work late we claim time back.... we have no written policies on the acquasition of time back in the nursery or how and when it can be used, never have.... my understanding, and the way it has always been done is that if you work late you get time back.... i may be totally off base on this, but that is the only reason i can see them aledging this.... however the way it is worded makes me sound like a criminal..... should i have been provided with evidence for this accusation? If it is not in reference to time back, but instead general daily hours we programme our daily hours into a computer, but i am not the only person that can access this, and at least one person that can access this really dislikes me and would have no problem changing my hours on the system.. i can not prove or disprove this. the reality is, the team is divided, and i think the nursery owners feel it is because some of the staff don't get on with me, and they don't like the fact that myself and deputy are friends out of work. i have never made any secret over the fact that i feel i need more support from my managers, but i have not received it... i have enough posts on here rambling about work... yet i have no official recognition that i discussed things with my boss... i told my boss the other day about being told that my senior had knowingly let a member of staff stand aorund for ten minutes doing nothing whilst other staff struggled and were out of ratio (the complaint was brought to me by mu mum, who also happens to work at nursery). the owner did not act on it and let the senior get away with this.. the owners answer is ' if its not written down then how do they know'. can i go with this for above points ~ just play thick?????? since no policies in place re time back. yet i get suspended for the above points..... this morning the owner allowed two staff (none senior) to open up (granted one was previously deputy before she got demoted), neither were first aid trained.... breach in ofsted regulations i think. i feel like the owners want me gone and this may be there way to get rid of me.... i have a written warning for accusations that i did not deal with a child protection issue as soon as i knew about it... the fact was that i was not told about it till the friday when it was dealt with, despite this two staff (neither of whom like me) said differently..... i took this warning without appeal but feel now that was a mistake..... they can now probably sack me for the given allegations here and i do not know what to do. as i say i have received no evidence, no details of what the possible outcome may be ~ despite the fact that the conduct guidelines said i should..... am also being told i am not allowed my dad present at the hearing.. im allowed either a collegue or union representative. advice really appreciated..... hearing tommorow at 7:15 pm..... what should i be asking?, can i do anything?, or does this spell the end of my career???? Edited to ask: when they make a decision can they take my previous working history into acocunt..... ie the fact that i supported them in becoming established in the nursery (they brought the nursery two years ago,, when i had been managing it one year by then), my commitment to working late, staying extra and doing things in my own time... or can they only deal with the here and now? I also did not have an induction as manager under the old company, i made the new owners aware of this (though unfortunatly not in writting only verbally), They did not give me an induction either.... either way i see it, i made a mistake and will accept that. but what i won't be accused of is something i did not do (the hours thing), without a fight..... the nursery is cutting corners at all angles and it annoys me, but i can not prove it..... what a situation to be in. Edited September 14, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Phone ACAS or your Union as soon as you can. ACAS will tell you your rights and the ins and outs of having someone such as your Dad with you, what written information you should receive etc. (There is no charge either) If you are in a Union they are likely to provide actual support. It sounds like a very nasty situation, so take all the advice you can. Will be thinking of you Gruffalo2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Hi Dawn I agree with getting legal advice, could you also ask your development worker or early years advisor to sit in with you to give you support I will be thinking of you... good luck...lots of hugs coming your way....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_8466 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Oh Dawn this does sound very complicated and very upsetting. First, I've moved this topic into the lounge which is only accessible by members. So unless anyone on your staff team are members here, the support you receive here will be private. I strongly suggest you call ACAS first thing tomorrow morning. They have an excellent helpline for both employers and employees - they will be able to clarify what should happen next, and whether they can stipulate what kind of person can accompany you on your disciplinary hearing. They will also tell you whether your employer must provide all evidence to you in writing prior to the disciplinary hearing taking place. This would seem to me to be natural justice - I personally don't think you should be forced to react to their accusations on the hop. You deserve time to examine the evidence and be able to prepare your arguments in advance. If you are being accused of obtaining money by deception, then I would imagine this is akin to fraud and if that is the case, there might be a case for involving the police. There are ways of auditing computers so that you can tell if data has been altered and when, and therefore narrow down who made the changes (I'm assuming your office PC is not password controlled - if it is then this makes it much easier to find out who has changed what, I think). The situations you describe are quite vague because of the lack of policies in the setting. Ultimately the registered person is responsible for ensuring these are in place and up to date - if you were to put in a counter claim for constructive dismissal, they would need to prove their policies were fit for purpose, and followed appropriately. Something to think about as you prepare for your hearing. I can understand how it looks like a bit of a witch hunt from your perspective - two months to act on a complaint of this nature seems excessive, even in a large organisation. See what ACAS say in the morning about your rights and your employer's responsibilities and see if you can buy yourself some more time. It does seem very unfair that you are going into this hearing without very basic information about what you're being accused of. Take care - hope it all gets sorted out. Maz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_4177 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Dawn, agree about the legal advice, I know that ACAS are very helpful and constructive and will help you gather your thoughts. I am so sorry that this has happened to you and hope everything can be sorted out. Take care. Posy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_2732 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Dawn, I hope all goes well. I was in a similar situation some time ago, it's hard but keep your chin up. I'm certain that you should be given full details of the allegation in writing, including all salient points 48 hours before the hearing; ACAS will clarify if your employers have met this requirement. You should have this information in order to prepare and it may be that this will buy you a little more time. As others have said, ACAS are very helpful and provide 'both sides', so you can make an informed decision as to how to proceed. Good luck, I will be thinking of you Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_12960 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Can only agree with the advice given so far. I would also advise you to write a letter outlining your points of view to the disciplinary panel, if for no other reason than it will allow you to think through every point and ensure you cover all the areas you feel you need to respond to with a clear head, rather than trying to remember all your points at the meeting. Give this to the panel at the start of the meeting if permitted. Also speak to Acas about the format of the meeting, so you know what to expect and so you can see if it is being properly followed by the disciplinary panel. Please remember that we are all thinking of you, and that we await with baited breath for further news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I want to wish you luck - sounds to me that they are looking for excuses to get rid of you for whatever reason - but it is wrong what they are doing in my opinion! Phone ACAS. Also, the letter should state that you can take a work collegeague with you to the hearing. At the hearing they will present the facts and give you the opportunity to respond. The they should adjourn to make the decision as to whether it is gross misconduct and instant dismissal or to let you off with a warning. Eitehr way you will have time to appeal. Thining of you ((hugs)). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_11962 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 hi Dawn, no useful advice I'm afraid but just wanted to send positive vibes your way, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_1195 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I agree with everyone's good advice and that this is a complex situation which needs careful handling on all sides. Phone ACAS and take their advice as they have experience with dealing with these situations. Have you been given a copy of the disciplinary procedure? If not then request it and make sure they follow it to the letter, if not then any appeal would automatically find for you. It is essential that you know what is in it because it will state who you can bring with you, and at what point in proceedings. Preferably take someone from a union if you are in one. Don't go alone. Is this just the preliminary hearing where they outline their case? You should receive all the evidence, in writing, beforehand, to give you an opportunity to make your case. If this is the full hearing then you can call witnesses, as they can, but your witnesses will have to agree to come. I think the most important advice that we have given here is to get advice from an expert. We will all be thinking of you, and do come back here for support and encouragement. Take care of yourself (((Dawn))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 good luck, i have no advice i am afraid, but i hope it all goes well for you! amy x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_1027 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 just wanted to ad my support and good wishes for you Dawn xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_8623 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Good positive thoughts going your way Dawn. We're here to support you. Good luck in getting it all sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Hi Dawn, I really feel for you. You must be feeling very let down and angry. ACAS give great advice for free and they can also refer you to a legal aid helpline who can offer you even more support assuming your income is low enough to qualify. You should also check whether you have any free legal expenses/advice cover on any mortgage, life assurance or bank accounts you have. Just make sure that you are as well prepared as possible. Good Luck and keep us informed. xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 just wanted to wish you luck. Sarah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Nothing to add to all the above good advice but I wanted to wish you the best of luck as well. Focus on the good you have done and the successes you have made. loads hugs and kisses and thoughts killowengirl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Hi Dawn Just wondering how you got on. Hope all went well, best wishes to you and hopefully we will hear some positive news from you soon. Debbie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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