AnonyMouse_705 Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 Hi Two of my staff have just completed first aid course on which they were told that it would be a good idea to keep a bottle of Calpol at the setting to administer to a child in case say their parents were some way away and we needed to reduce the child's temperature. They were told that we could ring the NHS Direct number to obtain authorisation to adminster Calpol if the parent cannot be contacted, and they have the power to overide others. They would give a reference number as authorisationl. Now I am wondering if this would be a sensible precaution in the light of a possible Swine Flu pandemic? However, what if the parent has not told you that they have administered Calpol and you are unable to contact them to get their consent to administer Calpol? They were also advised that we should have a staff accident book.
AnonyMouse_8466 Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 This is a new one on me - so many questions to ask here! I'm not sure that NHS Direct would have the power to act in loco parentis in this way - doesn't sound at all right to me. I was wondering what would happen if the parents had dosed the child up with calpol before bringing them to nursery and the dose authorised by NHS direct caused the child to receive an overdose. Who would the parent sue? Maz
AnonyMouse_2732 Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 With you 150% there, Maz!!! Sounds rather dodgy to me, too. Deb, I would have thought a staff accident book/record was standard? Sue
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 (edited) I'm with Maz and Sue on this one. There is no way I would give a child medication with having permission from a parent on that day. I think that if I were concerned enough to be considering overriding this policy for some reason the I should be calling for qualified medical assistance i.e. a doctor or an ambulance. They then make the decision and take responsibility as per your permission to seek medical attention signed by parents. Edited November 7, 2009 by Upsy Daisy
AnonyMouse_4544 Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 I'm afraid I wouldn't be happy giving a child Calpol either.
Guest Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Hi Just some thoughts..... my daughter has always been prone to fitting if her temp gets too high so we have always followed Dr guidance with calpol and ibubrofen etc. One time, aged about 6 she had temp and then told me she could see 2 of me etc (double vision). Got her to emergency dr while spongeing down, she vomited etc etc. Dr got her straight into hospital. They took down all the details of how I had dosed her and then I watched as they gave her 3 if not 4 more spoonfulls of medicine!!! So not sure if an extra spoonful of calpol would overdose a child. She was then monitored and urine sample taken. After a couple of hours her temp came right down and she was released. Last day of term we had 4 yr old boy with raging temp. He felt tired etc. One staff stayed with him while other called mum. Her work was over an hour away!! In that time he fell asleep on the cushions. We moved the other children into the other room and I stayed with him. Sponged his face and opened a window and kept an eye on him. Fortunately he did not fit. However we were discussing if we should have calpol on site so that we could administer at times like this where parent is still a while away. Of course mum also arrived without calpol, he could hardly stand up and she had to carry him to car etc. I suppose if we had calpol parent could give verbal permission on phone? Could we say to give calpol could be classed as emergency treatment? As a parent Im not sure I would be pleased if i heard my daughter had fitted because someone would not give calpol? At the present moment we do as you all do and dont give. Could we put in our registration document?
Guest Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 We are full day care and hold Calpol and Nurofen on site. If a child has a high temp and the parents cant get to us we ask there permission over the phone to administer Calpol, this permission is repeated to a 2nd colleague. Then when the parents arrive they sign the medication form as normal. Quite often the parent gets to us quickly, in this case we dont adminster calpol to the child but the parent does in readiness for the journey home. We certainly would not give Calpol without parental permission, if we cant get hold of the parent then we take the child to A and E, we are lucky enough to be on a hospital site. Only had to do this once thankfully!
AnonyMouse_4544 Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 I wouldn't administer Calpol in school even with a parent's permission unless it has been prescribed by a doctor and is in a bottle with a pharmacy label giving the child's name and required dosage as we aren't allowed to give over the counter medicines in schools. I do have a child in my class who has a medical condition which requires us to keep Calpol for emergencies but it is prescribed by her hospital paediatrician. I also had a child with a raging temperature before half term and we contacted mum who was 40 miles away so we decided to take him straight to the doctor.
AnonyMouse_1469 Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 No, I wouldn't administer calpol either, I'm afraid.I can't see how NHS direct can override anyone's permissions either.If I had a child with high temp, of course,I'd phone parents, but would then do the usual things.......removing outer layers of clothes, sponging down, open windows etc. I don't keep calpol on the premises, though I realise this is becoming increasingly common practice ( I know some groups have 'permission to administer calpol' on their admission forms and it baffles me, frankly).
Guest Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 (edited) No, I wouldn't administer calpol either, I'm afraid.I can't see how NHS direct can override anyone's permissions either.If I had a child with high temp, of course,I'd phone parents, but would then do the usual things.......removing outer layers of clothes, sponging down, open windows etc. I don't keep calpol on the premises, though I realise this is becoming increasingly common practice ( I know some groups have 'permission to administer calpol' on their admission forms and it baffles me, frankly). Jut wondered why it would baffle you about it being on a reg form ? Edited November 7, 2009 by marley
Guest Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 I also had a child with a raging temperature before half term and we contacted mum who was 40 miles away so we decided to take him straight to the doctor. Hi Are you school based? Who did you get to take him to Drs? Did you have to release staff from ratios, take in car (other possible issues for staff at pre-school)?
AnonyMouse_4544 Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Yes I'm school based but if ratios were a problem (which they often are in schools - 1 teacher alone with 30 children) I would phone for an ambulance as I did when a child had an extreme temperature and a history of febrile convulsions and parents were unavailable.
Guest Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Hi Deb, I would not administer Calpol in any event UNLESS I had prior parent consent to do this, knew when the last dose had been given. Ofsted produced a Medication Factsheet for reference Jan 2009, Giving medication to children in registered care included as an attachment, this is really good guidance and states clearly what the requirments are. I would follow this, at the end o fthe day it is Ofsted that register and inspect and the welfare requirments we need to meet so I would go with that. Hope this helps. Hi Two of my staff have just completed first aid course on which they were told that it would be a good idea to keep a bottle of Calpol at the setting to administer to a child in case say their parents were some way away and we needed to reduce the child's temperature. They were told that we could ring the NHS Direct number to obtain authorisation to adminster Calpol if the parent cannot be contacted, and they have the power to overide others. They would give a reference number as authorisationl. Now I am wondering if this would be a sensible precaution in the light of a possible Swine Flu pandemic? However, what if the parent has not told you that they have administered Calpol and you are unable to contact them to get their consent to administer Calpol? They were also advised that we should have a staff accident book. Giving_medication_in_childcare.doc
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Thankyou milo1. I had no idea that Ofsted produced these factsheets. It clears up a fair few issues. However I am still not sure whether we can give medication which a parent has bought over the counter if the child has not seen a professional for that particular episode of illness. It's fine if they have bought Calpol on the recommendation of a pharmacist for an injured arm but can we still give that to the child 3 months later for teething pain? Can we say that once a professional has recommended Calpol for a child we are covered indefinitely to give that child Calpol which has been bought over the counter whenever the need arises as long as we discuss it with the parents at the time we give it? I think that's what it says but I'm not really sure. I also think this part could have implications for some settings; What if I have a policy not to give medication? If you do not want to give medication, you will need to consider what other measures you would need to take when children are in pain, have a long-term medical condition or otherwise need medication. You will need to show that these other measures do not discriminate and promote the good health of children.
AnonyMouse_4544 Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 The guidance from my LA is only medicines that have been prescribed by a doctor and dispensed by a chemist with a label indicating the dosage and child's details NOT anything bought over the counter. I have a child with a chronic condition that means she regularly requires Calpol but it is dispensed by her hospital.
AnonyMouse_13532 Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 Ditto to Marion's comments Our policy states that we only administer medicine which has a doctors label, indicating doseage and the child's name
Guest Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Hi Deb, I think that as long as you have parent consent at the time, keep a record and share information with parent, eg find out last dose, get parent sig to agree when medication has been adminsitered at that time-it should be ok. I would send an email to ofstedenquiries@gov.uk to get a clear explanantion and confirmation of your queries, keep the response and use it to support your procedures. As you have already highlighted I agree with your ideas raised regarding policy for non-administration of medication. I would be stating clearly what you will do as a provision in the event that medication is not to be administered. As long as strategies you have in place are stated clearly and in agreement with parents wishes, management, committee if relevant to your setting, this will support what you do. I'm pleased to know the factsheet was helpful to you. These pieces of information are not always easy to find on the website, I have spent ages trawling to look for information. It would be so helpful if Ofsted had an easier method of searching for information or had a specific index relevant to factsheets. The Ofsted enquiries email system is usually very good though and I have always recieved a response to any queries I have sent in the past, so always worth a try. Best wishes. Thankyou milo1. I had no idea that Ofsted produced these factsheets. It clears up a fair few issues. However I am still not sure whether we can give medication which a parent has bought over the counter if the child has not seen a professional for that particular episode of illness. It's fine if they have bought Calpol on the recommendation of a pharmacist for an injured arm but can we still give that to the child 3 months later for teething pain? Can we say that once a professional has recommended Calpol for a child we are covered indefinitely to give that child Calpol which has been bought over the counter whenever the need arises as long as we discuss it with the parents at the time we give it? I think that's what it says but I'm not really sure. I also think this part could have implications for some settings; What if I have a policy not to give medication? If you do not want to give medication, you will need to consider what other measures you would need to take when children are in pain, have a long-term medical condition or otherwise need medication. You will need to show that these other measures do not discriminate and promote the good health of children.
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 The Ofsted enquiries email system is usually very good though and I have always recieved a response to any queries I have sent in the past, so always worth a try. Well perhaps I need to give them another chance then. Email queries I have sent have always been answered with totally irrelevant information which was no help at all. Maybe I was just unlucky. I also will find some time to trawl the Ofsted website and see what other fact sheets are hidden away on there.
Guest Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) I have found the subject very interesting, and agree with most of you that i would not adminster medicine without seeking permission from any parent. I work in a day nursery, and some children are here from 7.30am; and you may not be told that they have been given anything before they come in. I have just re-done my reg form/parents consent form which details Capol and it says this Calpol In keeping with the Childcare standards we are not allowed to administer Calpol unless we have permission from you. We are aware that babies in particular will go through the stage of teething therefore parents/ carers are welcome to bring in calpol in a named bottle or box of sachets and these will be stored in the medicine cupboard in the kitchen. I give consent for ................................. staff to administer calpol to my child (if needed) as long as telephone agreement is given first, with a follow up email as a form of written consent Signed: _______________________ (parent/guardian) Date: ________________ Along with Ofsteds fact sheet there is a publication called Managing Medicines in School and Early Years which i have found useful in writing new policies etc. I got this from mr EFSA, i have looked on the DfES website but it is no longer there, maybe worth a call or email to them to see if they still hold it. Edited November 12, 2009 by Guest removal of the setting name from post
AnonyMouse_705 Posted November 16, 2009 Author Posted November 16, 2009 Thank you all for your replies and links. I have emailed Oftsed as suggested to obtain written confirmation and await their response. I hope that it will be clear and unambiguous. Although it concerns me that a child might be at risk because of our policy of not administering calpol, my gut feeling is that it would unwise to administer calpol, even on the authorisation of the NHS, to a child without the parent's permission, verbal or written, in case the child had already been given calpol by the parent prior to dropping off and we had not been told. Thanks again.
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 I couldn't agree more,Deb. Would you mind letting us know what Ofsted say?
Guest Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 We are full day care and hold Calpol and Nurofen on site. If a child has a high temp and the parents cant get to us we ask there permission over the phone to administer Calpol, this permission is repeated to a 2nd colleague. Then when the parents arrive they sign the medication form as normal. Quite often the parent gets to us quickly, in this case we dont adminster calpol to the child but the parent does in readiness for the journey home. We certainly would not give Calpol without parental permission, if we cant get hold of the parent then we take the child to A and E, we are lucky enough to be on a hospital site. Only had to do this once thankfully! We are a nursery that gets consent off all our parents to give Calpol. In the Dept of health Managing Medicines in the Early years page 9 it states that 'you should never give a child under 16 asprin or medicines containing ibuprofen unless prescribed by a doctor'
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 We are a nursery that gets consent off all our parents to give Calpol. In the Dept of health Managing Medicines in the Early years page 9 it states that 'you should never give a child under 16 asprin or medicines containing ibuprofen unless prescribed by a doctor' Doesn't that come under the Ofsted guidance discussed earlier; "So, you can give medication that is recommended by a pharmacist or nurse without a written prescription, as well as any medication prescribed by a doctor, dentist or an appropriately qualified pharmacist or nurse." This applies to all medicines including Ibuprofen. Still no clearer on whether it's ok to give it as long as it has been prescribed at least once in the past by one of these people. Am I the only one confused? I haven't had a reply to my email to Ofsted so far.
Guest Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 I'm with all of you that say no calpol/piriton on site unless provided by parents. however the UPROAR for want of a better word from parents when I revised the policy was incredible- tears, tantrums and downright bloody rude oh and the odd accusation of endangering their child... my argument: If they need calpol they are ill or under the weather and need to go home. We may mask any illness. the Piriton- if your child has a reaction to something you should see the reaction and so should the doctor. If it is a serious reaction-I'll be ringing the ambuance anyway. Calpol has a lot to answer fr in my opinion!
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