Guest jenpercy Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 I run an after school club. Several of our children have been observed by us doing way more than the stuff recorded on their profile as given to us by school. For example, one child's mother was disgusted to be told in child's report that she could use numbers up to 10 when mum and we had seen her using numbers to 40. Also one child still had not achieved initial letters and sounds on his profile which we were given several weeks after he did us a lovely picture of a DOG YOWNIT van. 2 different schools. So what is the point of what the schools are doing - and especially what is the point trying to correspond with the schools. We only got given this stuff because I begged, practically cried because one of the things we failed our last OFSTED on was communication with schools. They do not want anything back from us - but I don't think they can fail their OFSTED because they don't want to know what we do. Jen
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 Maybe the children are more relaxed and able to choose their activities and so show higher abilities than when at school. You should be proud of yourselves. I never knew what the point was in sharing thugh, the R teachers told us they didnt refer to our assessmnets, so it was just a paperchase for Ofsted really. If you have difficulties sharing information, make sure you have evidence that you've tried, you cant then be blamed for other people.
AnonyMouse_73 Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 Hi jen There can be a number of reasons why it appears that children can do more than stated by a child's school profile. One such reason is interpretation. So in the examples you gave, saying a child 'can work with' numbers up to 40, do you mean the same as the school does on that? Working with numbers is vastly different for example from counting by rote or recognizing the numbers. Obviously I dont know what the child is actually doing, but sometimes we don't all mean the same thing when we say something and it is this that can cause confusion. Likewise with initial sounds, Im not sure I understand the example you gave, as I dont have the context (did the child sound out the letters as he wrote them, did he know what he was writing etc, was he trying to write something from memory etc?). Perhaps he knows some letter sounds but not all, and this is reflected in his report, and perhpas that report was written some time ago and he has since made progress.? Other reasons may be that children sometimes don't do the same things in large groups as they do in small group with the attention of an adult, or they may not show what they can independently at school, or it may even have been missed. (we're all human sometimes even the most experienced of us can miss something about a child in a busy class with 30 children!) Given that you have tried but don't yet have a good relationship with the school, you could suggest to the parent that they query the information about their child, if they feel it in accurate.. it is really for them to engage with the school over this. I hope that helps.
AnonyMouse_4544 Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 I run an after school club. Several of our children have been observed by us doing way more than the stuff recorded on their profile as given to us by school. For example, one child's mother was disgusted to be told in child's report that she could use numbers up to 10 when mum and we had seen her using numbers to 40. Also one child still had not achieved initial letters and sounds on his profile which we were given several weeks after he did us a lovely picture of a DOG YOWNIT van. 2 different schools. Jen Sorry to ask but are you familiar with the profile? I'm not sure which profile point you think the school could award for a child using numbers up to 40 or where using initial letters and sounds appears perhaps you could help me ?
Guest jenpercy Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 Sorry to ask but are you familiar with the profile? I'm not sure which profile point you think the school could award for a child using numbers up to 40 or where using initial letters and sounds appears perhaps you could help me ? not that sure about the actual points - but I know that at least one parent did not think that she recognised her child from profile. I have also had the same problem in reverse now I come to think about it. A 4 year old came in and his mum brought his nursery profile. It said he had achieved all sorts of things for PSE, for example being aware of the culture and feelings of others etc, but we had him for the whole summer and found him to be just a typical 4 year old boy, who needed lots of work on that sort of thing. I don't think it was that we were a new setting, as we had him for every day for 6 weeks @ 8 hours a day. He would have had to be a prodigy to be that advanced. I think there is a problem with scale points being widely interpretable. I am sure that what is passed on to us and to the parents is NOT the current picture. Last year one teacher refused to give us anything as she said it was all on post-it notes and she would be writing it up in may half term. Is there anyone out there who can tell me that they have a meaningful relationship between school and kids club from either direction
AnonyMouse_8466 Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 I think there is a problem with scale points being widely interpretable. I find the profile handbook is very good for pinning down exactly what the points mean - at first glance some of them seem quite easy to achieve but when you look at the guidance it soon becomes clear that they aren't. Maz
Helen Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 I'm a bit confused...not difficult, I know! Are you talking about a nursery profile (ie a learning journey type document) or are you talking about the EYFS profile, completed at the end of reception? Because if it's the latter, are you just given it at the end of the child's time in reception, or during the year? If it's the former, there are no scale points!
Guest jenpercy Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 I'm a bit confused...not difficult, I know! Are you talking about a nursery profile (ie a learning journey type document) or are you talking about the EYFS profile, completed at the end of reception? Because if it's the latter, are you just given it at the end of the child's time in reception, or during the year? If it's the former, there are no scale points! Parents at one school were sent home with a document stating that their children could do x - which was clearly something straight from the scale points. as an after-school provider, we have been handed a copy of document highlighted as to achieved in autumn term, different colour for achieved in spring term. neither the parents concerned or myself have fould this useful. as I stated before, I have a distinct impression that this is not up to date, and as I deal wit children up to 12 years old, i have no desire to learn what this stuff is about. I had a teacher ring me today about a child that we will be taking during the Easter hols, and she told me that this child was level 6 throughout. I really don't understand allthis stuff. the only child that i have seen coming from nursery had exactly the same document accompanying the learning journey, as the stuff I've been sent from reception class. I run an after school club. the children coming to me are all in reception, occasionally haven't started school yet, particularly in summer hols. getting stuff at the end of reception would be of no use whatsoever, as I can turn my back on it by then. Except that I officially have to do it until 31st August for my 5 year olds. So they are not allowed to have a holiday until they are 6
AnonyMouse_3401 Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 The EYFS profile is the assessment tool for the end of reception and its aim is to provide Year 1 with the information about where the children are so they can use it as a starting point or baseline for their planning. We are required to give this information to parents so they can also see at what point their child is in relation to all the scale points. Some teachers use this as a summative assessment and update it throughout the year, which is why you and your parents are recieving copies, some LEA's have their own tracking system too. I would have felt your role would be to contribute to their learning journey, you can provide a valuable insight to how that child is outside school. Both the breakfast club and after school club contribute to our learning journeys, I have deliberatly kept the form simple because as you quite rightly pointed out they too have a wide range of age groups some of whom are not EYFS. They can add as little or as much as they feel necessary and They can see the learning jouney whenever too. For particular children who regularly attend both clubs or those with special needs a more formal meeting is held. Possibly the confusion has arisen due to the similar sounding documents as some learning journeys are called profiles? S My_Learning_Journey_at_After_School_Club.doc
Guest jenpercy Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Actually none of our schools is at all interested in our contributing anything to them They have only provided me with any information for my OFSTED. I note you say that the kids club can see the learning journey whenever they want. Don't they have to do their own too? Or are they on school premises?
AnonyMouse_4544 Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 not that sure about the actual points - but I know that at least one parent did not think that she recognised her child from profile. but that is the limitations of the actual profile and the reports it generates rather than the school's fault. There is a profile point for counting to 10 but counting to 20 can not be awarded unless the child is independently using maths to solve problems.... and the writing you describe comes in the developmental matters section of the profile as the ELGs expect much more from a child. Schools are very aware that there are huge gaps in profile data and children can do lots of things that aren't recorded in the profile. Helen many settings seems to be using the profile before the end of reception especially if they use the eye profile. I can't comment on why they have decided to do so but it seems an issue in certain LAs.
Guest jenpercy Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 but that is the limitations of the actual profile and the reports it generates rather than the school's fault. There is a profile point for counting to 10 but counting to 20 can not be awarded unless the child is independently using maths to solve problems.... and the writing you describe comes in the developmental matters section of the profile as the ELGs expect much more from a child. Schools are very aware that there are huge gaps in profile data and children can do lots of things that aren't recorded in the profile. Helen many settings seems to be using the profile before the end of reception especially if they use the eye profile. I can't comment on why they have decided to do so but it seems an issue in certain LAs. I am sure that I have read somewhere NOT to use the profile in this way. If it causing me so much confusion, and I have read up lots of stuff - even though not using full profile, then it is as sure as hell confusimg for parents.
Helen Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Thanks for your thoughts on this, Sharon. I agree it's so important for after-school clubs to be able to access and contribute to a child's learning journey. What a pity Jen that your feeder schools don't appreciate your potential contribution. Thanks for reminding me Marion that some schools do use the profile as an ongoing method of recording achievement. Jen, how do you organise your records for your children?
AnonyMouse_4544 Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 I am sure that I have read somewhere NOT to use the profile in this way. If it causing me so much confusion, and I have read up lots of stuff - even though not using full profile, then it is as sure as hell confusimg for parents. The guidance from the NAA is that they aren't intended for nursery BUT if it is LA policy to use them individual teachers haven't much say.
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