Staffing In Eyfs

[AnonyMouse_13401]

Hi all. Getting really frustrated in school. For our PPA time we were assigned no cover, when I 'discussed' this the smt said we can have someone between the 2 Reception classes until half-term. She often doesn't arrive as sent to cover elsewhere. Toilets aren't in the class and and we then can't offer free flow, (PPA coincides with our outdoor slot). Also when someone is off in SMT say sort it our yourself within the eyfs despite other TAs in school doing photocopying etc. For short and long periods we are struggling, ie only 1body in each Reception class. What is happening elsewhere?

 

Also our Nursery is 34 place full time. There is currently 1 teacher and 2 tas. 1 level 3 and I'm not sure what the other one is as she has not had formal training. (Although both great) I thought this was ok until I read the eyfs guidance on p18.

 

'Where the size of a group of children aged 3 and over in a maintained school (except reception classes)exceeds 26, it is good practise to assign an additional teacher to the class. An additional teacher should always be assigned where the group size exceeds 30. If in a registered setting , the size of a group of children aged 3 and over exceeds 26, the ratio requirement of one adult to 13 children will only appl if 2 members of staff hold either Qualified teacher status or early years professional status or another suitable level 6 qualification'

 

I would really appreciate it if someone could clarify this for me.

[Guest]

In my nursery we have 39 full time children with 1 teacher and 2 TA level 3 reading what you have posted is now making me question are we doing the right thing?

[Guest LornaW]

Hi all. Getting really frustrated in school. For our PPA time we were assigned no cover, when I 'discussed' this the smt said we can have someone between the 2 Reception classes until half-term. She often doesn't arrive as sent to cover elsewhere. Toilets aren't in the class and and we then can't offer free flow, (PPA coincides with our outdoor slot). Also when someone is off in SMT say sort it our yourself within the eyfs despite other TAs in school doing photocopying etc. For short and long periods we are struggling, ie only 1body in each Reception class. What is happening elsewhere?

 

Schools cannot do as you say in the School Teachers Pay and Conditions it says...

 

Guaranteed planning and preparation time

63.5 All teachers who participate in the teaching of pupils are entitled to

reasonable periods of Planning, Preparation and Assessment (PPA) to

enable the discharge of the professional responsibilities of teaching

and assessment. A teacher to whom paragraphs 62.2 to 62.11 apply

must be allowed PPA time as part of the 1265 hours referred to in

paragraph 62.4 or, in the case of a teacher employed part-time, as part

of the pro rata equivalent referred to in paragraph 62.5.

63.6 PPA time must amount to not less than 10% of the teacher’s timetabled

teaching time (and for this purpose “timetabled teaching time”, in

relation to a teacher, means the aggregate period of time in the school

timetable during which the teacher has been assigned by the head

teacher in the school time-table to teach pupils).

63.7 PPA time must be provided in units of not less than half an hour during

the school’s timetabled teaching week.

63.8 Such a teacher must not be required to carry out any other duties

during the teacher’s PPA time.

 

Speak to your union!

 

Lorna

[AnonyMouse_1195]

You are going to have a very difficult conversation with your SMT. Within nursery you must have another teacher according to your numbers. One teacher and one Level three per 26 children, so you need another teacher at the very least as you are over thirty, plus another level three. PPA is 10% of teacher time and MUST be planned into your week with appropriate cover, which can be a Level three. As the nursery is now delivering 3 hour sessions, so six hours daily, you need to look at how many hours the teacher is teaching and adjust her PPA accordingly. I would take the relevant documents to the SMT, and if they don't listen you need advice from your union regional office ASAP.

Just to add if the Level Three is already one of the staff the ratios must still be maintained so extra staff will be needed whilst the nursery teacher is on PPA.

[AnonyMouse_13401]

Thanks all. I really appreciate the time you have taken to answer my post. We do actually get ppa time in reception but it is leaving the 1 ta in each class that are there all week. I appreciate we aren't guarenteed 2 staff in each reception but 1 person in each class means free flow to outdoors doesn't happen and again the toilet issue. If the teacher needs to visit the children's toilet for any reason (as often happens) then no one is left in the class. The quality of the teaching experience then significanly decreases!

 

What happens to other people in reception during ppa. Annoying as other staff (tas) doing office paperwork or displays when not adequate cover in classes - in my opinion anyway!!

[Guest]

I have a query about numbers - what if you go to 27 children, but the 27th has a 1:1 - does this satisfy the staffing ration? 1 teacher, 1 level 3 TA + 1 level 2 with 1 child??

[Guest]

oops I ment ratio!

[AnonyMouse_13401]

oops I ment ratio!

Very good question! I suspect not as this is additional workload for teacher, meetings with senco etc........ Are people generally agreed that once over 26 it is an additional teacher? Am I reading the right section of eyfs. Don't want to get my facts wrong in any future staffing discussions!

[AnonyMouse_73]

Hi mumm, it is written as above, that once a nursery class goes above 30 there should be an extra teacher. However, Im not sure how well this is being applied across the country. Many nursery classes when I was teaching were 39 place and always 1 teacher and 2 xTAs. It was always a bug bear if mine that I had the biggest class in the school and if part time, I actually had 78 children , equivalent almost to 3 classes. It would be interesting to know from other member here if any school with a 39 place nursery actually got an extra teacher when the EYFS came into being?

 

Iusedtobeabox, to be honest you are within ration with 27 children and 3 members of staff, if you did not have your 1:1 child, you would have 26 and two adult, which is the required ratio for nursery classes. If you are in a reception class then you could have 30 children and 1 teacher plus your 1:1 TA, and no other TA.

 

Mumm, I think your bigger issue is the lack of support for your PPA, and I do think you should go back to your head on this and complain, if necessary to you governing body. Why does your head think a TA can manage the EYFS on their own when you don't have to as a teacher in your school? I would tackle this from the expectations given to other classes, ie they have cover for their classes, so why shouldn't you? Sadly, I know exactly how you feel, as I had this issue too when I was teaching, pre EYFS but still, a TA covered my PPA and often it was a different one each week.

 

Good luck with it Mumm.

[AnonyMouse_4544]

I thought this was ok until I read the eyfs guidance on p18.

 

'Where the size of a group of children aged 3 and over in a maintained school (except reception classes)exceeds 26, it is good practise to assign an additional teacher to the class. An additional teacher should always be assigned where the group size exceeds 30. If in a registered setting , the size of a group of children aged 3 and over exceeds 26, the ratio requirement of one adult to 13 children will only appl if 2 members of staff hold either Qualified teacher status or early years professional status or another suitable level 6 qualification'

 

I would really appreciate it if someone could clarify this for me.

 

I think the problem is that although this is included in the guidance document it is just that guidance and isn't statutory

 

The statutory requirements simply state

 

Children aged three and over in maintained schools and nursery schools (except for children in

reception classes)

■■ The early years provision in each class or group of pupils must be led by a ‘school teacher’1.

A teacher must be present with the children except during non-contact time, breaks and short term

absence.

 

 

■■ There must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children.

■■ At least one member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification (as defined by CWDC).

[AnonyMouse_13401]

Hi mumm, it is written as above, that once a nursery class goes above 30 there should be an extra teacher. However, Im not sure how well this is being applied across the country. Many nursery classes when I was teaching were 39 place and always 1 teacher and 2 xTAs. It was always a bug bear if mine that I had the biggest class in the school and if part time, I actually had 78 children , equivalent almost to 3 classes. It would be interesting to know from other member here if any school with a 39 place nursery actually got an extra teacher when the EYFS came into being?

 

Iusedtobeabox, to be honest you are within ration with 27 children and 3 members of staff, if you did not have your 1:1 child, you would have 26 and two adult, which is the required ratio for nursery classes. If you are in a reception class then you could have 30 children and 1 teacher plus your 1:1 TA, and no other TA.

 

Mumm, I think your bigger issue is the lack of support for your PPA, and I do think you should go back to your head on this and complain, if necessary to you governing body. Why does your head think a TA can manage the EYFS on their own when you don't have to as a teacher in your school? I would tackle this from the expectations given to other classes, ie they have cover for their classes, so why shouldn't you? Sadly, I know exactly how you feel, as I had this issue too when I was teaching, pre EYFS but still, a TA covered my PPA and often it was a different one each week.

 

Good luck with it Mumm.

Mundia your are a star. You have clarified this very well for me and I will follow it up as best I can. Yes I would be interested too to hear from others in a similar situation of being over 26 in a nursery class.

[AnonyMouse_73]

Mundia your are a star.

 

 

 

Aww thanks mumm, you've made my day!

[Guest]

We get wednesday afternoon as our PPA i have a teacher that covers my class with my TA everyweek. I do not have to stay i can go home which i do tend to do part way through the afternoon as i use some of time to do observations etc we have a small class this year only 22. Last year we had 30 and 2 children that were badly behaved and the head employed another TA to cover PPA so there were 3 adults in the class so free flo could go on as well as someone being there to support the children if they needed to be removed from the class.

[AnonyMouse_13401]

Thanks eggwoman, it shows it can be done!! Marion that is a very good point, it is just guidance - well what a waste of time!

[Guest]

I am a nursery nurse in a school and cover for our nursery teacher's and the two reception teacher's PPA.

This is how ours is organised.....

When I am covering for our nursery teacher I have our usual TA2 with me and a TA2 from reception, the TA from reception is employed as a TA2 but holds a relevant level 3 qualification (wrong I know but it is all in the wording!) She also replaces me in nursery when I am covering for the reception teachers.

When I am covering for the two reception teachers one class is with me and the other class have two TA/sports coaches, we swap classes half way through the PPA afternoon. I generally have a TA2 with me when covering in reception.

About staffing for nursery classes of 39.....we have one nursery teacher, myself (a level 3 nursery nurse) and a level 2TA. This follows current legislation.

Hope this is helpful

Edited October 11, 2010 by Guest

[AnonyMouse_11485]

I think the problem is that although this is included in the guidance document it is just that guidance and isn't statutory

 

The statutory requirements simply state

 

Children aged three and over in maintained schools and nursery schools (except for children in

reception classes)

■■ The early years provision in each class or group of pupils must be led by a ‘school teacher’1.

A teacher must be present with the children except during non-contact time, breaks and short term

absence.

 

 

■■ There must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children.

■■ At least one member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification (as defined by CWDC).

 

How many children is a Teaching Assistant allowed to be responsible for by herself at any one time (in a reception class)? I can't find it in the EYFS Practice Guidance or Statutory Framework. Somehow in my head I've got the number 15? no idea where from! Does anyone know? And could you tell me where it officially says? Thanks!

[AnonyMouse_4544]

How many children is a Teaching Assistant allowed to be responsible for by herself at any one time (in a reception class)? I can't find it in the EYFS Practice Guidance or Statutory Framework. Somehow in my head I've got the number 15? no idea where from! Does anyone know? And could you tell me where it officially says? Thanks!

 

A TA can be responsible for 30 children in reception for short periods if the head considers them to be competent

[Guest]

I thought the ratio bit of the EYFS was statutory?

 

The whole TA covering thing was what unions raised when PPA was initially introduced. We need to be soooo careful that teachers don't get de-valued by being seen as so easily replaced!

 

Good luck with getting your PPA time properly covered.

[Guest]

I thought the ratio bit of the EYFS was statutory?

 

The whole TA covering thing was what unions raised when PPA was initially introduced. We need to be soooo careful that teachers don't get de-valued by being seen as so easily replaced!

 

Good luck with getting your PPA time properly covered.

Not to mention taking advantage of support staff and having cover on the cheap

When TAs are covering it takes them away from their regular roles in school eg. intervention work, their key person role and supporting teachers in the classroom.

This also applies to other times when TAs cover for teachers eg. illness, courses and meetings, not just when covering PPA time. Teacher are to 'rarely cover' for absent colleagues so it often falls to support staff.

We are lucky as in our school as it is only level 3 TAs who cover for teacher's PPA or provide cover supervision.

Any cover supervision is now monitored so we do not do too much in a week (this has only happened since Sept but is a positive step)

Edited October 14, 2010 by Guest

[Guest]

Absolutely, TAs are often undervalued as well and of course don't have the same contractual rights as teachers.

 

I dread to think what might happen to them with the spending review.

[Guest]

Absolutely, TAs are often undervalued as well and of course don't have the same contractual rights as teachers.

 

I dread to think what might happen to them with the spending review.

I agree with your post Suzie.

Since our school has been monitoring cover provided by support staff they have been using supply teachers where necessary.

Supply teachers cost a lot and the budget for cover is being used like never before.

It shows how much cover our TAs have been doing in the past doesn't it?

I worry about how schools will cope and what will happen to jobs.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Guest

[AnonyMouse_4544]

I thought the ratio bit of the EYFS was statutory?

 

The whole TA covering thing was what unions raised when PPA was initially introduced. We need to be soooo careful that teachers don't get de-valued by being seen as so easily replaced!

 

Good luck with getting your PPA time properly covered.

 

Legal requirements for adult ratio EYFS

 

Children in reception classes in maintained schools

The EYFS does not place ratio and qualification requirements on reception classes in maintained

schools provided they fall within the legal definition of an infant class (i.e. a class containing

pupils the majority of whom will reach the age of five, six, or seven during the course of the

school year)2. Such classes are already subject to infant class size legislation: an infant class

must not contain more than 30 pupils while an ordinary teaching session is conducted by a

single school teacher

 

 

Infant class size legislation

 

‘School teachers’ do not include teaching assistants, higher level teaching assistants or other support staff. However, support staff may carry out ‘specified work’, such as delivering lessons to pupils, within infant classes in certain circumstances1. In each case:

•

the headteacher must be satisfied of the support staff’s skills, expertise and experience to carry out such work;

•

the work carried out must be in order to assist or support the work of a ‘school teacher’; and

•

s/he must be subject to the direction and supervision of a ‘school teacher’.

3. In practice this means that, although a school with infant classes must have sufficient school teachers to be able to teach its infants in groups of 30 or fewer per teacher, support staff, providing they meet the above criteria, may ‘teach’ infant groups when teachers are not available (e.g. when a teacher is away from their class on their Planning, Preparation and Assessment time).

4. Support staff must not be the main ‘teacher’ for an infant group and, where support staff are undertaking the more demanding aspects of “specified work” – particularly where they are working with whole classes – head

1 See the Education (Specified Work and Registration) (England) Regulations 2003)

9

teachers should have regard to the higher level teaching assistant (HLTA) standards in determining whether those staff have the necessary level of skills and expertise.

5. If a school were to use support staff instead of teachers to lead its infant groups, either as a permanent arrangement or for the majority of the school week on a regular basis, it would be in default of its class size duty.

Consequently, a school must employ sufficient teachers to enable it to teach its infant classes in groups of no more than 30 per school teacher.