AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 You were so helpful last time I asked. Can I be cheeky and ask again please? My younger daughter, G, who is in Y3, is being assessed for Autistic Spectrum Disorder and Sensory Processing Disorder so has many worries about school and quite high anxiety while she's there. The teacher has made lots of adjustments for her but seems to be losing enthusiasm for this and getting a bit hung up on the fact that G might take advantage of these adjustments. To make things more complicated still we have been, told after some tests, that G probably has juvenile arthritis and we'll be going back to the children's hospital in April to find out more. In the meantime she's taking a lot of painkillers, some of which she sometimes needs me to go and give her during the school day. Because of her ASD she doesn't express her pain like other people but she will tell you if it gets unbearable and this is the point at which she tells the teacher and they call me. When the school called me down to give her pain relief today the teacher told me she doesn't see G's pain, doesn't like having to leave the class to get the office to call me and thinks G is using it as an excuse to see me when she feels unsettled or wants to 'get out' of something. She wants me to choose a time and come and give her the additional painkillers at that time every day whether she's asking for them or not. I'm not happy to give her more painkiller when she doesn't need them because she's already on very high doses and I don't think it's reasonable to be so worried that G could be using it to her advantage like this. Surely the most important thing is that her pain is managed effectively with the minimum use of these drugs? If it is juvenile arthritis she could be needing them for years. Please tell me if I am being unreasonable in expecting the school to be willing to contact me when she needs them to and accommodate this small amount of disruption. Suggestions of other ways to go about this would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_1195 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Goodness me you see to be having more than your fair share of problems with this school Upsy Daisy. I think I would be inclined to go and speak to your Dr. or whoever has prescribed the pain killers, and explain the problem you are having with the school, as it seems quite wrong to be giving painkillers 'just in case'. As I'm sure you know, if a child has epilepsy or needs an epipen for allergies, someone from the health services comes in to train the staff on the appropriate action to take, so if your daughter needs these drugs then is there someone 'official' who can go in and speak to the HT and staff? The school may then be able to put something in place to support your daughter, which doesn't involve the teacher leaving the classroom if you need contacting, such as a card system which another pupil can take to the office. It might be worth asking to see their medication policy to see how they approach giving medication for pupils who need it regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_8466 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Why do you have to go into school and give G her painkillers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_19782 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I agree with JacquieL, there must be a way for the teacher to communicate with the office without her leaving her class. Just another thought - my mum has a patch - bit like one the smokers have to quit - this delivers painkiller over the week - is there something like this G might be able to have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 This is unacceptable. Your daughter's needs are not being met if she has to be given medication at set times when the dosage is for "as and when". It also doesn't help her learn to respond earlier to the pain signals if she is being given medication at set times. I also don't see why you are having to administer this necessary medication - if you were not available (e.g. you were at work at that time) would she have to suffer until after school? As a childminder I would be giving this form (subject to the correct permissions and paperwork and training if applicable). If it is difficult to leave the class, then the school need to get a £10 Tesco etc PAYG mobile and top up so she can call you from the class if needs be, or call the office to ask them to. This teacher seems remarkably arrogant or insecure or both. You knwo your daughter and her needs very well, and she needs to be guided by that. It is not really up to her to "see" your daugters pain, as she is capable of expressing it herself. Unless she is a health professional, in which case she should administer the medication herself, she needs to shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueFinanceManager Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Is there no TA in the classroom that can go out and ask for you to be called? What about the school SENCO...can they not offer some practical approaches that helps all concerned. My colleague here who also works in a school says she finds many parents unwilling to come in during a school day to help their child so you are way ahead of the curve there lovely. Hope you can find a resolution to this, the school don't seem incredibly supportive Sue x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_1195 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I suspect that this school could be in breach of the DDA expecting you to come in, which is why you need to see their policies and get some outside advice to support you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3735 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I would also consider discussing pain management with your doctor or nurse at the surgery.. as one who has in the past worked with children who have had arthritis in several forms we used to work out a plan to give medication regularly and at set times, before any pain was evident... the painkillers used to work better when given this way and the dose ended up as less than when given as and when... does depend on the medication though . It was often better for the child not to get the pain which was what could cause distress... as others have said no reason the school cannot invest in some way for the teacher to communicate with the office... cheap mobile phone or walkie talkies if need be are not expensive.. i am assuming the medication is of a kind which is more than the basic painkillers, if not I too wonder why you have to go in.. cannot permission be given for someone to administer it, does seem unfair to call you in, what if you could not get there? does G have to suffer until you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_79 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Unless the medicine is prescribed ie dispensed it is unlikely that the school can give this themselves, even if it has been advised by a doctor so depending on the painkillers involved this could be part of the problem. However, I do think the school are being unreasonable in their approach to this. I would be extrememly concerned if my child's needs were dismissed in this way- how do they think your daughter is taking advantage exactly? My own experience is that if a need is met by being flexible then very often the anxiety that preceedes the need is reduced or negated and the need itself becomes less. Good luck with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Thank you everyone. I have been told in the past that the school cannot administer meds but it had not occurred to me that the long term nature of this condition may mean that this policy doesn't apply. The teacher is new to teaching in the school and in this country so I have emailed the school this evening to clarify their position before I do anything else. Susan, the teacher thinks that she's asking for painkillers when she wants to see me because she's feeling unsettled. Personally I would be asking myself what I could do to make her feel happier in school but the teacher sees it differently. I find it very hard to see myself when she is in pain so I can understand why the teacher is struggling but the OT tells me that it is not unusual for children with SPD and I've tried to explain this. I will contact my GP to see if they think I should just give her the meds to prevent the pain rather than react to it. If that's the right approach it could solve the problem on days when I can get there easily. I am beginning to wonder if this is the right school for her, especially if this is going to be a long term condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_8466 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Sorry I know I'm not a teacher, but I have to have my say! Presumably even if they are not prescription drugs, your doctor could prescribe them and then they'd be suitably labelled to meet the school's procedures and policies? We had a little girl in our setting who had sensory processing difficulties amongst other challenges, and she would never every ever let us know when she was in pain. I once watched her fall over, bump her head so that a large egg shaped swelling was appearing before my eyes but she acted as though nothing had happened. I've met G a few times now, and I imagine that she must have been in pain for some or possibly all of those occasions, and as you say, you would never know it from looking at her. Which is all the more reason why the teacher should believe her when she says she needs pain relief. I think maybe the teacher is focussing on the wrong things - why is she so hung up about G wanting to play the system? It sounds to me that she has a control issue. I know I've been in situations where I have got myself into situations with children where I have adopted an inflexible approach because I didn't stop to think whether this was a battle worth fighting. The end result (of course) was often that the child still refused to comply, and I was left feeling I had lost control of the situation, and that the child had 'won'. I wonder if this is how she's feeling - she has lost many significant battles and perhaps she's feeling she's in danger of losing the war? She needs to be helped to see that if only you could all work together, you can win the war together - and that is a much better learning experience for all concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 I couldn't agree more Maz. I worry that the teacher and the head are so worried about her playing the system that it has become far too important. The OT told me that whether G is playing the system is totally irrelevant and the school should not be focussing on that. Hopefully she will express that view when she next visits. As she was telling me of her concerns about having to leave the classroom and G using her pain to get to see me, the class teacher also said that she can't begin to imagine how hard it must be for me to deal with all of this and that she doesn't pretend to have any answers herself. That left me more confused than ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) What on earth do the school do about administering medication to say those with asthma or allergies? I have two children in my class with asthma who have their inhaler administered by me every lunchtime and there are several children in the school with allergies who staff can administer medicine to if they have a reaction (otherwise the children would possibly die by the time help arrived!) Same with the boy with epillepsy in my class, although we did have to have special training to be allowed to administer his medication (thank goodness I've never had to yet). There is no law which says schools can't administer medication and if the school is so worried about her using it to see you they should be looking into administering it themselves (although to be honest I don't see why they should be fussing about this at all unless she is doing it several times a day in which case I can see why the teacher might be getting a little frustrated). EDIT to say that whilst I mean I can see why she would be frustrated this does not mean I think she is right. Something needs to be set up that meets G's needs not hers. Edited March 15, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3307 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) When I had children with chronic/diagnosed/medicated conditions there was a care plan set up with the parent/school nurse and all to agree how and when things would be done so it was clear to everyone. Important also so that supply staff know what to do if the class teacher is away. Maybe this is what you need to pressure for. The teacher is bang out of order and even if the teacher won't administer prescribed medicines the school needs to make it possible. Children have inhalers at all times of the day as needed, epi pens have to be administered immediately so no chance of hanging around for mum to rock up while the child goes blue there!!! They have to meet the needs of the child not make the child meet the timetable of the school. Bah!! Cx Edited March 15, 2011 by catma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 There is no law which says schools can't administer medication and if the school is so worried about her using it to see you they should be looking into administering it themselves (although to be honest I don't see why they should be fussing about this at all unless she is doing it several times a day in which case I can see why the teacher might be getting a little frustrated). EDIT to say that whilst I mean I can see why she would be frustrated this does not mean I think she is right. Something needs to be set up that meets G's needs not hers. AS far as I'm aware she's only asked for painkillers on the three occasions they have called me in. I'm pretty sure it would have been raised if she'd asked more often, by her if not by the teacher!. When I had children with chronic/diagnosed/medicated conditions there was a care plan set up with the parent/school nurse and all to agree how and when things would be done so it was clear to everyone. Important also so that supply staff know what to do if the class teacher is away. Maybe this is what you need to pressure for. The teacher is bang out of order and even if the teacher won't administer prescribed medicines the school needs to make it possible. Children have inhalers at all times of the day as needed, epi pens have to be administered immediately so no chance of hanging around for mum to rock up while the child goes blue there!!! They have to meet the needs of the child not make the child meet the timetable of the school. Bah!! Cx When we've been to see the rheumatologist and had a firmer diagnosis (fingers crossed) I will be asking for a formal care plan to be put in place and including details on how they will ensure that all staff are aware of it. A big issue at the moment for the school is that she has no formal diagnosis of ASD, SPD or arthritis. I know that provision should be needs-led, not diagnosis-led but they can't seem to see that so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_73 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hi upsy. I cant add much more than others but if you havent read it before, its worth glancing through managing medicines in schools and early years settings It seems to me that there are 3 things at play here. 1. a proper pain management plan through your GP or reumatologist (which might also include other treatment plans eg physio) 2. The school understanding its responsibilities in terms of what it needs to do (which they may well know, but may be dragging their feet on). The Senco should be leading the way on this really 3. the teacher is new to he school and the system.. she may be unclear about what she needs to do within the school context as this may not be the same wherever she has come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 It all seems very odd that they are thinking of their own needs and not your daughters. I hope she is playing the system, it seems she is more aware of her own needs than the school is, so good luck to her if shes found a way of having her needs met. Even with the problems she's facing, she is showing a wonderful grasp of intolerance and is learning to stand up for herself. She sounds very brave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Oh Rea, thank you! That did make me laugh. She can be quite creative. This is the child who would say she needed the toilet and shut herself in the cubicle to calm down when the classroom got too much last year. She also knows which lunchtime supervisors don't like her being allowed to stay in the library at lunchtime and when she hears them coming she hides behind the shelves so they don't see her. Last year when one of the other children upset her she marched straight out of the classroom to the head's office, knocked on her door and asked her to sort it out. You're right - she is pretty good at getting her own needs met. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 It sounds as if she could march around sorting the teachers out herself! That aside I can hardly believe the school are making a fuss after you've been called out just three times! That surely can't be disrupting things that much and if a child with such complex needs as G is playing the system and getting you out when she needs to see you to de-stress, so what? Why is it such a massive issue? Sure the other children can't do it, but then the other children don't have the same needs. It sounds to me as if the teacher is just looking for excuses as to why things are so hard for her and putting the blame on G. I'm sure she could quite easily come up with a way to communicate with the office without leaving the room if she really wanted to. That's just a silly excuse that she is making and it makes me cross! I would talk to them as soon as possible with regards to their medication policy and reasons why someone in school can't be trained to administer the medication so you don't have to be called out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hi upsy. I cant add much more than others but if you havent read it before, its worth glancing through managing medicines in schools and early years settings It seems to me that there are 3 things at play here. 1. a proper pain management plan through your GP or reumatologist (which might also include other treatment plans eg physio) 2. The school understanding its responsibilities in terms of what it needs to do (which they may well know, but may be dragging their feet on). The Senco should be leading the way on this really 3. the teacher is new to he school and the system.. she may be unclear about what she needs to do within the school context as this may not be the same wherever she has come from. Thank you Mundia. This document could be helpful when I get an answer to my email. FSF has come through for me again. I feel much more confident to discuss this with them tomorrow after I've spoken to the GP about the best way to manage her pain. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_19762 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hi Upsy Daisy.....I have nothing useful to add.......so I'm just sending two huge hugs - that's one for you and one for G xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 My first thought was why is the teacher leaving her class to ask to phone you? can't she send a note with a child to the office and the office staff sort it out? My son suffers with febrile convulsions and his temperature can rise very quickly and result in a fit. I sent in Calpol with instructions, filled out numerous forms and gave them permission to administer it in an emergency (which they have done and then phoned me). Surely if there is a plan in place where you have given permission to the school to administer pain relief if your daughter is in pain then they could then just phone you to inform you that she's had the medication or to just check this would mean you wouldn't have to go to the school and she couldn't therefore be accused of making it up in order to see you. It does sound to me that this school isn't meeting your daughter's needs and maybe therefore it isn't right for her. It is I'm sure hard enough to help your daughter to deal with the problems she faces without having to battle with negative attitudes from her teachers. Whether she has been diagnosed or not, there are lots of agencies that the school have access to which can advise and support. (communication and interraction team) Is the school using social stories/widget to help your daughter to cope with difficult situations? Does she have a calm distraction free area to work, does she have a safe place if things have got too much, if playtime is an issue can she stay inside with 1 or 2 friends to play a quiet game etc That said I have 2 children in my class with ASD (1 very severe) and a new girl started yesterday who I suspect is on the spectrum too! I do my absolute best for these children as I do for all children in my care but some days it is very hard (days vary hugely some are calm, some are mayhem and the behaviour of these 2 children has a massive negative impact on the rest of the class) One of these children for example has a phobia about wind and rain (not good in the UK!) and I know that if is raining or windy in the morning that no matter what we do (social stories, windy day box, play buddies, headphones etc) the day will be very difficult for him and he will spend the day watching the weather traumatised. When we have a bad day my TA and I are completely worn down trying to meet the needs of all 30 not just the 2. So I do I'm afraid that I do have some sympathy with the teacher-sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hi Upsy Daisy.....I have nothing useful to add.......so I'm just sending two huge hugs - that's one for you and one for G xx Hugs gratefully accepted Sunnyday! I'll pass G's on when I in a little while when I decide to brave bedtime Thankyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jayr Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hugs gratefully accepted Sunnyday! I'll pass G's on when I in a little while when I decide to brave bedtime Thankyou Upsy Daisy, I am just sending you and yours my very best wishes. The school should be looking to the needs of your child. Good Luck. Hugs, Jayr xxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Its sad to say your daughter's school clearly has a problem with her - maybe next time you meet the head you should ask them exactly why everything is such an enormous issue for them? They are certainly not doing their job properly or working in your daughter's best interests. How heartbreaking for both you and your daughter to be constantly fighting battles to get the help and support you need. At my school they're constantly going on about removing barriers to learning for each individual - and in some children's cases that means highly individualised interventions - without extra money or support, its something a good teacher just does (to the best of their abilities). Would it be very disruptive to your daughter to consider changing schools? It cannot be healthy for her to be constantly battling to get her needs met and must be very frustrating and exhausting for you. With regards to the pain medication I can only say that I have had constant pain since I was 17 and chose not to take painkillers unless I'm in desperate need - but when I decide I need them, I NEED them - regardless of where I am or what I'm doing - your daughter is perfectly capable of deciding for herself if she needs painkillers (not the teacher) and since most children can't stand taking medicine its unlikely she'd be making it up! Although, ofc, if its decided that a constant preventative dose is needed then thats the way to go. Does that all make sense? Who knows! But I'm sending you big hugs - and gentle ones for your daughter (so they don't hurt too much) and hope you find a way to resolve this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm sorry to hear you've been in so much pain Lucy. G does hate taking the painkillers and will wait until the pain is unbearable before asking for them so I think she is very much like you in that when she needs them she really needs them. I would love to find a more accommodating school but we need to get diagnoses and then look at possibilities for school provision either with or without a statement after that. I just tried ringing the OT in the hope she could explain a little more to the teacher for me but she's away for a week. I am having lunch with a friend who is a GP today so I will be picking her brains about pain management. I think I might write a book about the frustration and exhaustion involved in parenting children with SEN. What I'd like to do is finish off my EYFD but as each new challenge rears its head this goal moves further into the distance I also have to make sure I'm sufficiently wee prepared for my older daughter's statement review tomorrow and try make sure I'm ready to deal with their political shenanigans. Thanks again to everyone for your support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) I think I might write a book about the frustration and exhaustion involved in parenting children with SEN. You've been pipped to the post Upsy Sarah Teather's report "The special educational needs and disability review - A statement is not enough" was published last September. You can find it here http://www.flse.org.uk/Ofsted-SEN-Review.htm "parents were forthright that the current system was not helping their children adequately to achieve these goals. They were particularly concerned about what they saw as inconsistencies in the identification of the needs of young people, and getting fair access to high-quality services to meet those needs. Parents saw the current system as requiring them to ‘fight for the rights’ of their children, and they often wanted their child to be formally identified as having special educational needs – and especially to have a statement – as their guarantee of additional support" When you've read it perhaps you could pass it on to G's teacher Hope today is a better day!! Nona x Edited March 16, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 When we have a bad day my TA and I are completely worn down trying to meet the needs of all 30 not just the 2. So I do I'm afraid that I do have some sympathy with the teacher-sorry. I have every sympathy for the teacher and she is a kind lady who G really likes. She just seems to be far too hung up on G getting away with something. G is usually very quiet and her self-defence mechanism is to zone out rather than meltdown so her needs are often overlooked. The head rang me today in response to my email querying whether they can give her paracetamol. The answer is a resounding no except that when pushed she agreed that they would hold it for her one a full day trip they will be on next week. She kept bringing the conversation back to the fact that they can't see the pain and think she might be using it as a way to see me. She's asked the school nurse who has told her that the ibuprofen G has a 7am is sufficient pain relief for the whole school day! I wonder how she thinks she knows that! This thread gave me the confidence to keep turning it back round to the fact that they cannot make a judgement about how much pain she is in and that, as giving her the paracetamol takes about a minute at most, it really shouldn't be a problem anyway. I also had lunch today with a friend who is a GP and she is shocked at the school's attitude and thinks I'm right to be responsive to her pain and to expect the school to contact me when G asks them to. I feel better knowing that so many people agree with me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3735 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 wonder how they expect to see pain... perhaps ask what they would expect... how they can see it if it is something they are hung up on.. turn it back and ask how? perhaps ask when they when they have a headache how do they show the pain...how would you know other than them vocalising it.. ... the pain is very real, but not visible to others... and always remembering children do not always show emotions and those with difficulties often don't at all... the children we had would often really hurt themselves but never show any pain at all.. we had to be very aware of them and their lack of showing emotion. Ibuprofen only lasts up to 6 hours.. not a full school day.. for most it often only works 4 hours... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 wonder how they expect to see pain... perhaps ask what they would expect... how they can see it if it is something they are hung up on.. turn it back and ask how? perhaps ask when they when they have a headache how do they show the pain...how would you know other than them vocalising it.. ... the pain is very real, but not visible to others... and always remembering children do not always show emotions and those with difficulties often don't at all... the children we had would often really hurt themselves but never show any pain at all.. we had to be very aware of them and their lack of showing emotion. Ibuprofen only lasts up to 6 hours.. not a full school day.. for most it often only works 4 hours... The head says G asks for pain relief and then can be observed rolling on the floor and laughing which she is adamant indicates that she is not in pain. She doesn't accept that there is any other option. She was pretty tight lipped by the end of the call and, although I was firm in my view that they should call me when G asks them to, I'm beginning to wonder whether they may start trying to put her off. I will go and see the school nurse myself at her drop-in next week so that she is fully aware of the facts. I wish I could be half as confident in my judgement of her needs as they are in theirs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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