Guest Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Hi i'd like some advice please.Hope its ok to use this thread as its related. Our chair is wanting to rewrite our policy so that it says that we have to have two people present when changing children. I am not comfortable with this but would like your views. Do you have this in your policies? I have told my manager I think its an unnecessary step but as yet she hasnt said anything to the chair. The chair also has written that girl children should also only be changed by female staff. Again, Id like your thoughts as again I think this is a bit strange to insist on. However, if other nurseries have it in their policies and its the 'done' thing then I will have to agree! thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3735 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Hi jazzy1, plenty will come and let you know their take on it, but it is not needed to have 2 to change a child, not the female/male discrimination . which it could be seen as if refusing to let a male change any child in the setting.. Staff who do change children should all be fully checked and full members of staff etc.. but otherwise I like many feel it is not needed to have 2 staff..and it is not a requirement of Ofsted to do so. .It is better to make it a simple matter of fact, chatty pleasant experience for the child and staff member.. and as someone here is always telling us..not a spectator sport.. must be very daunting to have 2 adults stood over while changing, or having one watch... i am assuming they will be investing in more staff to allow this if it takes 2 staff members out of ratio for every time a nappy is changed.. that was my argument when they tried it on us... 2 staff out left xx children with 1 staff member.. who was the most vulnerable.. so to do it we would need more staff... they backed down.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I used to work at a setting here boys and girls were separated for toileting from pre-school age, but the staff were allowed to give help where needed (there was a man on staff too) I definitely wouldnt have two people to change for a variety of reasons not least of which is the fact I'd question if I was trusted. If management is good and everyone is aware of theirs and everybody elses roles, then no-one will have time or opportunity to do anything untoward, so I really dont see it as necessary. Has the chair given a reason for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_19762 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 and as someone here is always telling us..not a spectator sport.. must be very daunting to have 2 adults stood over while changing, or having one watch... :rolleyes: Wonder who that could be........ Jazzy1 - if you read right through this thread you will find the answers you are looking for - good luck :1b 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_30128 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 ...and just to confirm again i was at my designated person training this week and again it was reiterated that you do not have to have 2 people and that the children have a right to privacy...however you might want to create a code of conduct for the staff to ensure they know what you expect of them. (the trainer was a senior social worker for many years and trains all the staff in school and early years in this area!) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Ah finleymaid, this is particularly useful, thankyou. I need to be brave and discuss this again with my manager. Im not sure why the chair insisting on it - assumed it was to protect us. However, I feel awkward agreeing to a policy I dont agree with. has anyone got in their policies about females changing girls?? Ive never heard of such a thing so again Im feeling a bit surprised she would suggest such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 It would be classed as sexual discrimination to state only females can change female children. We were told this in no uncertain terms at a training course on discrimination. Also what would the boys do if your male member of staff were not there? What message does it send to parents about how the male member of staff, and the male children for that matter, are thought of? Do you not trust him? Or are boys not likely to be abused? Or are boys not as important as girls? Not saying you feel like this obviously! Also please ask your chair to remember that abuse of children can come from females too, so by restricting the changing of girls to the female staff they are not necessarily protecting them. Instead a robust recruitment and vetting process and an environment of openness is more likely to be protective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_6709 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 This the first time I have posted so here goes.... Today a child's parents came in and stated that their child had said that she was terrified to come into pre-school because a member of staff had wiped her bottom too hard. This member of staff had not been in, the child is three and a half, the parents are removing her because she is traumatised. I have amended the policies and procedures to protect the staff with two staff present one helping the child if requested and the other hoovering outside the loo not the cubicles. I also agree the children find it hard to wipe themselves but because of this I am asking the staff to encourage the children to wipe themselves. Nappy changing is also conducted with one staff changing the other hoovering by the door. I agree children should be allowed the privacy to toilet but...... I also have implemented a form which staff sign regarding children who have been changed and why. The staff have worked at this preschool for a long time. I do not feel good about this all tonight but feel I need to safeguard my staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_41997 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 This the first time I have posted so here goes.... Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Welcome to the forum t.surman ::1a In your shoes I think I'd merely do a risk assessment and review what I know about my staff and maybe remind staff how these things are supposed to be done. Was the child already sore from previous nappy rash maybe? I think by changing your policies and procedures you've allowed this parent to undermine the trust we must have in our staff. The idea of a form is great, I've also seen one's which allows room for any observations such as nappy rash, marks etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_12805 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I'm sorry and i have no wish to cause offence but how would one staff member hovering outside toilet protect your staff from accusations such as this? If you are outside a door you cannot see what is happening inside and would have no way of knowing how hard or soft or indeed whether they even were wiping a child's bottom. The fact that the staff member wasn't in when it happened is surely protection enough? I find this whole thing ludicrous- if you do not trust staff with your child- why leave them then? If you were a childminder who checks on you when changing nappies or wiping bottoms? Perhaps you are deemed to be more trustworthy than those of us who work in settings? I can see no evidence or instructions anywhere in the EY framework that even suggests that we should do this or worse leave a child covered in poo for maybe hours at a time rather than clean them- that's cruel- I'm sorry but it is- and if I picked up my child like that I would be very upset. I'm not even sure why recording nappy/clothes changes are a form of safeguarding? i can understand recording it for parents information but really dont know why this should then become a form of safeguarding. This whole issue makes me quite sad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I always saw the form as a way of informing parents of toilet habits during the day such as solid, runny, how many times etc. I doubt it could really be used as a safeguarding tool, although I once worked at a council nursery where the staff in the room took turns changing nappies and ensured no one child was changed more then once or twice a week by any one member of staff. I worked at a few council nurseries but this was the only one with this rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_6709 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Thank you for a quick response... The child was not sore according to mum but was afterwards and she is toilet trained. Since last year she has come into pre-school very upset not wanting to leave her mum. Once mum leaves she settles very quickly attachment re mum to child I feel is the issue here... The risk assessment is also in place and staff have had the information regarding toileting and nappy changing refresher training at the beginning of term. I do trust them and feel confident that they carry out there care of the children to a very high standard. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_1469 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I am beginning to feel that the lunatics are taking over the asylum on this one! I think much of the worry around changing/wiping/cleaning etc is based around the Plymouth case, which we would, I think, all accept was horrendous, BUT partly because the general ethos there seems to have been that no-one cared enough to challenge poor, or terrible practice. In our general day-to-day work, we need to accept that children will poo and get themselves in a mess sometimes. I have had children in my care who sometimes don't poo for days and then literally explode poo everywhere. they needed to be changed with compassion, care and dignity. Quite rightly, that is not a spectator sport and I trust my staff to change children carefully and with proper dignity. Our care chart shows who changed a child and why, so parents can always be shown this if needed. But for goodness sake, let's not get things out of proportion.............part of our job, one of the main parts, is CARE, and care includes cleaning children up, and if I employed a man, I would expect that he, along with all other staff, would chnage children of either gender, as necessary. If we were working in hospitals, no-one would question a male nurse changing children, so why would we do so in our settings?? I despair sometimes of where this will all lead us and the day that I am told I cannot clean up a child who is unable to do so themselves, is the day I shut the doors on my setting, never to return. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 The voice of reason in a mad world, well said Narnia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_11396 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Slightly digressing from the original post but this is similar in that some time ago now attending a seminar in which cuddling, any tactile comforting was strictly forbidden in some provisions. I agreed the day this came knocking on our door was the day i left. Common sense, good safeguarding procedures is all you need. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_14268 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The way it is going there is going to be no sensible, caring normal staff left in any settings soon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_12805 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 yes common sense indeed Narnia- fredbear reminds me of a an old childcare book I read once that advised if a child contined to suck their thumb at night, tie their hand to the bars of the cot!! Poor Terrydo- she asked a question and now has disappeared. I hope you dont think any of this was aimed at you- it's the sometimes ridiculous advise we seem to be given by our so called experts! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_30128 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Thank you for a quick response... The child was not sore according to mum but was afterwards and she is toilet trained. Since last year she has come into pre-school very upset not wanting to leave her mum. Once mum leaves she settles very quickly attachment re mum to child I feel is the issue here... The risk assessment is also in place and staff have had the information regarding toileting and nappy changing refresher training at the beginning of term. I do trust them and feel confident that they carry out there care of the children to a very high standard. Thanks Hi and welcome It stikes me from your post that this issue is about this family and their daughters not settling...so why do you feel the need to change your good practise? are you not happy with the current arrangements? I certainly would not be letting this child leave under these circumstances, this might be spread around as the reason she left the setting and as you have changed your policy it makes you look like the guilty party. Please don't let her leave saying it is your care that has caused a problem....if she wants to remove her child fine but get to the bottom of the problem (sorry not intended as a pun!).....maybe Mum needs a bit more support, it's really hard to leave a crying child every day. I know i did it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_6709 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Hi spoke to the mum today and got to the bottom of the problem. Yes it is a settling in problem and yes she said she may have got it wrong and yes I did over react changing policy which now I realise on reflection was not the right thing to do. I have been working with children for many years and you would think I would know better! Mum does need more support and as a mum whose daughter cried everyday even when entering Primary and on her first day of college I do empathise. If truth be told I panicked but can not quite understand why? All my staff are very experienced and some have worked in the setting for a long time all are level 3 or above and all care very much for the children. This shocked us all and I did what I did ... This may be my first and last thread as I seem to have upset many people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_41997 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 This may be my first and last thread as I seem to have upset many people Who have you upset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest terrydoo73 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 No I have not disappeared but on reading the responses felt I had opened a minefield - apologies to anyone whom I have offended. Feel a bit like t surman in that i have reacted very quickly and maybe because of my Deputy putting pressure on me! I feel on reflection that my child is reacting to settling in - he left private nursery at the beginning of September and comes to us for 2 1/2 hours then goes to a childminder - 3 days a week and the other 2 he goes home to either mum or dad. I have insisted from the beginning of this toilet training situation, which I hasten to add started after he had been with us 2 weeks (during which time he was normally going to the toilet), that every word from his father who normally brings him in each day should be recorded in written format. My Deputy was very despairing of this but I think now is beginning to see the point in it all. Dad is now questioning if the private nursery actually had properly trained him but as my Deputy politely pointed out to him - this is a parents responsibility and you cannot really lay blame with others. He is pulling in his health visitor to give advice - again my Deputy politely pointed out that the advice she will give will be similar to what we have given in that consistency is the key. Putting a child in pull ups at night then pants during the day will surely cause confusion to the child and this is what parents continue to do. Today when we asked dad to take him to the toilet before starting playgroup we realised that no encouragement was being given to the child - dad just stood and looked at the child, never telling him what to do not even use the toilet! We were in the hallway with the other children coming in and my Deputy just happened to go in to help wash another childs hands when she realised this. Today the child went to the toilet twice and no accidents! His father is implementing a reward chart at home and we inform the parent to give him stickers as appropriate - 2 for today. The child was in himself so pleased that he had gone to the toilet by himself, cleaned himself, washed and dried his hands that he came back into the playroom informing all the adults of his success! My Deputy reacted like someone else on here - what happens if she wiped this child and that night an infection set in which was attributed back to our wiping. That was her angle and she has now gone full circle, realising that it is really not fair to leave the child to do the cleaning of himself. We do have a parents permission form which asks specifically for the parent to sign and agree to us assisting with toileting and also for the parent to sign and agree to us changing the child as a result of a toileting accident. It is really interpretation here - how far does the assisting go to? I have dug my heels in and asked my Deputy to deal with this child herself every time as she is his key worker and maintains consistency for the child. He definately responds to her because she is dealing with it every time. There was never a question of asking the parent to withdraw this child - I repeat never! I was only coming from the angle that I did not want the parent to feel under pressure to withdraw because of our attitude to it all and just wanted advice on how to approach the whole situation sensitively. It obviously has raised a lot of peoples backs and I apologise if I have offended anyone - I simply wanted advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_11396 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Hi Terrydoo73 and Tsurman I am sure it was never any ones intention to make this topic seem one of your own doing. More the situation you have both found yourself in, whether it be LA policies or parents issues. The forum I feel is a sounding board to air,share and support eachother. I think many of the comments have been made out of frustration and despair, so please do continue to come on here. Fx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_13453 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I really don't know how to respond to you both, but I feel that I should say something, if you know what I mean. Reading through the thread from the start it has definitely raised some really strong opinions, not least of which has been to question the motives of those 'on high' who give us advice in interpreting the regulations and frameworks we must adhere to. I think it's necessary to stand back and look at our practice and simply say 'If this was MY child, how would I want this situation to be treated?' be that bottom wiping, cuddling after a fall or whatever. As long as we safeguard ourselves by not putting ourselves into situations that could be misinterpreted, and are totally open about our dealings with children to parents, then common sense SURELY should prevail! We are, after all, in a caring profession, we are CRB checked to show that we are trusted, many of us are very qualified and have been working with children for decades. We have known hundreds of 2, 3 and 4 year olds and we KNOW when to help and when to 'back off' and allow them to do things for themselves. If this thread has done anything, it has helped us to re-visit our practice and think about it from lots of points of view. Some will change their procedures and some will strengthen what they already do, but I don't think that ANYONE will have read through this and not thought about the issues it has raised over the course of the week when they have been helping children on the toilet. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I dont think you've offended anyone Terrydoo, as Cait says, you've made people be open about their thoughts on the matter and have possibly encouraged others to question why they do things in a certain way. One of the things I've learnt about this forum is that everyone has an opinion and everyone else is happy for them to voice it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_41997 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 We are, after all, in a caring profession, we are CRB checked to show that we are trusted, many of us are very qualified and have been working with children for decades. We have known hundreds of 2, 3 and 4 year olds and we KNOW when to help and when to 'back off' and allow them to do things for themselves. Is reflecting on practice and asking the views of others not a good thing? IMO there are some lucky kids all over the united kingdom to have such highly skilled and passionate practitioners! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3139 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Although I draw the line at wiping really snotty noses!! I delegate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_19762 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Hi spoke to the mum today and got to the bottom of the problem. Yes it is a settling in problem and yes she said she may have got it wrong and yes I did over react changing policy which now I realise on reflection was not the right thing to do. I have been working with children for many years and you would think I would know better! Mum does need more support and as a mum whose daughter cried everyday even when entering Primary and on her first day of college I do empathise. If truth be told I panicked but can not quite understand why? All my staff are very experienced and some have worked in the setting for a long time all are level 3 or above and all care very much for the children. This shocked us all and I did what I did ... This may be my first and last thread as I seem to have upset many people WHAT - why do you think you've upset anyone........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_19762 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 . It obviously has raised a lot of peoples backs and I apologise if I have offended anyone - I simply wanted advice! I have been pretty vocal in this thread ( still what's new there) - it is a subject that I feel strongly about (in case you hadn't noticed!) but I sincerely hope that I didn't ever give the impression that you had 'offended' me........this is one of the great things about this forum - we manage to debate without launching into personal attacks - we're all quite grown up like that :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_19762 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 - again my Deputy politely pointed out that the advice she will give will be similar to what we have given in that consistency is the key. Putting a child in pull ups at night then pants during the day will surely cause confusion to the child and this is what parents continue to do. You'd think I might just leave it alone now - but actually I can't - your point there makes no sense to me at all - all children still wear pull ups/nappies at night while they're training - being dry through the night comes later.............. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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