Is childminding classed as a business? Neighbour threatening legal act

[Guest]

Help! I am so disappointed.

 

I have been fortunate to finally become in the position to consider childminding and am very excited about training, planning and working with children. We have a lot of safe space, a spare room for a playroom and live on a quite cul-de-sac close to 3 schools. One of the schools is dedicated to providing for children with special educational needs. I have developed masses of care, educational and play experience over the years and finally, finally I am in the wonderful position to offer two or three children with fun, quality childcare.

 

I believed that I had checked everything. Booked on courses etc etc. Spoke to neighbours and explained that children would remain on my property and if there was concern over parking that I would ask parents to walk the few yards down having parked at the top.

 

Then, out of the blue two days ago a neighbour who has never shown any interest in mebefore, appeared at my door. She was rude and threatening stating that our deeds state that a business cannot operate from the houses on the estate. I was shocked and immediately contacted everyone to ask what they thought. She had been spreading lies to them, making them anxious and saying that this was in fact going to be a nursery with all sorts of parking problems. I tried to reassure them and deal with any concerns but in the end there were still a couple of old ladies who felt worried about the possibility of children around.

 

The neighbour in question has sought legal advice and I have been told that childminding is a business and I cannot operate. I obtained legal advice myself and it is true that, if a neighbour wishes they can sue for breach of covenant if I operate a business. The question still unanswered is ... Is childminding the same as running a business?

 

I have had to reconsider. I am gutted, so many plans. I would have had a few children. I am trained in special needs so may have been able to provide support to a family. Some of my neighbours have called around to let me know that they are disgusted but in the end I cannot afford to fight a legal battle and so probably have no-where to turn.

 

I have tried contacting various organisations for advice as to whether childminding is classed as a business and, although they sympathise, just cannot confirm either way. I suppose it is technically a business but a friendly unobtrusive one.

 

Any advice really appreciated.

xxx

 

 

 

[AnonyMouse_5970]

I wish I had some advice for you. I don't, but I couldn't read and run. There must be someone who can advise you and help you to overcome this hurdle. The local authority early years department? Is there a childminding network local to you? I don't really know much about childminding but I'm sure there will be someone along who is an expert.

I really, really hope you can start your childminding 'business'. You sound so dedicated and committed.

Best of luck.

[Steve]

Ditto Beehive, in that I haven't got anything much to contribute but didn't want to walk away without expressing my sympathy. It does make me wonder what kind of old ladies you live near, who are worried about the possibility of there being 'children around'...

 

I hope someone can come along and offer more practical advice hyacinth! :1b

[Guest]

Thank you Steve and Beehive, your comments are really appreciated. I'm half-way through my Basic Induction course and I've made so many friends that it seems a shame not to continue at least to the end. I will speak to the trainer for advice but everyone seems to say the same thing.. that it shouldn't be a problem unless a neighbour wishes to make it so.

 

I spoke again with our local council planning to see if they can confirm that childminding is classed as a business, I expect that it will be but I can only try. At the end of the day I wouldn't want to risk disruption for a parent/child if they agreed childcare with me and then I had to withdraw. So frustrating and unnecessary. I hope no-one else ever has to go through this experience.

 

Many house deeds will have a similar element, they are designed to protect residents from nuisance and I can understand that. I can't imagine that they would be interested in somebody running an Avon business. These are family homes but all of the children have grown, my own daughter is the youngest at 15. There used to be lots of children but people have tended to grow older and stay once their families have left home, leaving an eerily quiet cul-de-sac which a few people do not wish to risk changing. Would be lovely to hear the chatter of children playing though. Very sad.

 

Thanks again x

[AnonyMouse_19762]

Oh dear - this is all so sad - have you contacted NCMA?

[AnonyMouse_3139]

Not my mom is it?!

Honestly, some people have short memories!

Could you write to all the neighbours giving details of what the business would entail. Numbers of children, average times of arrival and collection, activities you'll be providing, the types of patents who would usd your service (working parents) anything that might shine a good light on your new venture really, but not the problems parking might cause, you don't need to give them ammunition!

[AnonyMouse_19762]

These are family homes but all of the children have grown, my own daughter is the youngest at 15. There used to be lots of children but people have tended to grow older and stay once their families have left home, leaving an eerily quiet cul-de-sac which a few people do not wish to risk changing. Would be lovely to hear the chatter of children playing though. Very sad.

Oops - me again!

 

We (Mr S and I) are no 'spring chickens' very large house next to us has had just couples living there for years - but last year a family bought it, they have 3 young children - 'dad' introduced himself and said "if the kids drive you mad with their noise, please just tell us" - I reassured him that the children could quite happily make as much 'noise' as they liked and it wouldn't bother us - and it doesn't we love listening to them playing - and if and when they are being 'told off' we just exchange smiles remembering when our 'boys' were young.......

 

Oldest of theirs is now learning to play guitar and again we love listening to his efforts (Mr S plays guitar too so he especially enjoys this!) :1b

[AnonyMouse_3139]

My brother learnt drums and trumpet. My eldest learnt guitar and we all think music should be played loudly.

 

Hyacinth, your neighbours need to be reminded of theirs and their own childhoods. Put something in a letter relating to childhood games, get them to remember their own childrens play.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Rea

[Guest]

Thank you Rea and Sunnyday, very encouraging comments. I so want to carry on with this that I keep hoping. More and more of my neighbours are coming over to my door to say how sorry they are that I have abandoned the idea (I wrote a second letter letting them know that I couldn't risk going ahead) but I'm not sure if they are just saying that. I don't think that they would support me if there was a dispute really.

 

I wrote to them originally stating size, set-up etc in an effort to reassure but legal steps against me still went ahead and I feel pressured into withdrawing.

 

Thanks, though, much appreciated

[AnonyMouse_2732]

I feel really aggrieved for you - i have never come across this before, so have no real advice, but hope you can sort this all out so you can continue with your exciting plans at some point.

[AnonyMouse_64]

I would have thought you would be classed as self employed rather than running a business? Running a business to me suggests that you employ others as well.

[AnonyMouse_3139]

I think thats where the complication sets in Beau, my hubbys self employed but still classed as having a business.

Hyacinth, could you register as a charity? All your profits would no doubt go back into your business anyway and even the head of a charity is allowed to draw a wage.

[AnonyMouse_9650]

Definition for business:

business n. any activity or enterprise entered into for profit. It does not mean it is a company, a corporation, partnership, or have any such formal organization, but it can range from a street peddler to General Motors.

Copyright © 1981-2005 by Gerald N. Hill and Kathleen T. Hill. All Right reserved.

I think the key here is if you are an enterprise entered into for profit which I believe (unless you are providing your services free) you are. I am a sole trader running a pre-school (not from home) however my home address is the business address insofar as the office is concerned; the trading address is the church hall that I work out of. As I am not trading from my home I am OK.

Have you considered consulting your local planning department? - Although don't hold your breath for a positive outcome here!

This is something that in my LA has come up before - a colleague has a nursery which now has curfewed garden play (e.g, 1 hour / day between allocated hours) as neighbours (in new houses built nearby, purchased by people who knew they would be living next to a full daycare nursery) complained. They even took the whole thing to appeal and unfortunately lost.

Sorry to be the harbinger of doom but you need to check this out for certain before you become operational.

[Guest SamG]

I'm sorry, but as SueJ says you will be a business as you will be selling your childcare services for profit (I'm married to an accountant and used to work at an accountant's office).

 

Check the deeds for your house carefully as they may be different from your neighbours!

 

I hope things work out well for you and I wish you lots of luck.

[AnonyMouse_39602]

firstly my sympathy in being faced with neighbours like yours! may i ask is your home an ex local authority one ?? ours is and the original covenant ( we bought our privateky from previous LA tenant) states no running of businaa as well as no livestock , chickens etc on land - yet we are semi rural - nearly everyone has chickens and some who are still tenants run business which involves car maintenance etc and is very nosiy and disturbing - not my end so i can ignore it !! although my friends find it quite disturbing .

It may be the original covenant is null and void but worth checking . Good luck and think Rea advice is good regarding writing to all concerned. maybe point them in the direction of news and how working parents struggle to find affordable day care !!

[Guest]

Once again, thank you so much to everyone who has posted. It is very rare for me to be flattened by something, normally very bouyant, but this situation feels so unfair that it has got to me. I really would be looking after just two or three children, mostly just before/after school or in the holidays. There is a real need as childcare is limited locally and I am so well placed.

 

I have tried reasoning gently but the statement still trots out .. that it is nothing personal but it cannot be allowed because it would set a precedent, overthrowing the terms of the covenant. Really though, we know that it is because of the children. My other neighbours have sympathised with me (one even told me that she had been receiving payment for childcare herself ten years ago, when her own children were young) but none of them want to actually stand with me against the others. They just don't want any trouble.

 

So sad. I keep looking at childminding books and I start to get tearful. Really not like me to give up but in this instance I think that I have no choice. Maybe I need to take a break for a couple of days to recharge. I could see me running it as a charity .. just to enjoy the pleasure of sticking it to the miseryguts and to spend time with the kids like I planned. Would be helping out too. Just need to be realistic. Maybe that's the next step?

 

Thank you everyone x

[AnonyMouse_11396]

Hang on in there. Fantastic advice already, especially about checking the deeds and any covenants of your property.

Good luck with this.

[Guest]

Thanks Fredbear

[Guest lillybeth]

So sorry about your troubles you sound so suited to this new venture Is there anyway you could join forces with another child minder in the area and perhaps co mind, sorry it is not much help but just might be an idea. x

[Guest]

Actually Lilybeth thats a good idea, thanks. x

[AnonyMouse_29641]

Hi Hyacinth,

 

Please, even if you aren't a member yet, contact Pacey (was National Child Minding Association) on Monday http://www.pacey.org.uk/. They have fab legal advisors. My understanding is that child minding, although it is a business, the effect is domestic, the same as a family using the home. All will be well. I had one busy-body pulling that stunt. Haven't seen her in six years now. NCMA legal line helped me then and I stick with them now.

 

I wonder if this neighbour of yours is knocking on the door of every plumber/web designer/avon agent in the street to tell them they can't park their van in their drive, do their paperwork or use their phone from their house.

 

Keep going. Teach the neighbours quietly.

 

Best of luck.

 

Honey

[AnonyMouse_29641]

Further to Lilybeth's idea, and one which has been on my mind for a while (since my husband became thingy about the effect chld minding has on our home), is what's known legally as 'Childcare on Domestic Premises', Up to three childminders use the same premises to offer childcare. I've heard of a shop with a flat above it being used to provide care. One of the childminders lived in the flat and two others worked from the shop. I'm supposing there was some outdoor space too. Not sure if the children are shared by the carers, or if they each have their own minded children.

 

Food for thought

 

Honey

[Guest lillybeth]

Hi I am not an expert on this matter but I think that up to three childminders can work together, if you go above three childminders you have to change to childcare on domestic premises - in effect you are a small nursery on domestic premises and then you have to have a manager, hope this is correct information.

[Guest]

I have an idea developing but, not too sure whether it could work. I already work in education and support and I absolutely love what I do. As all of us who provide care know, the rewards are immense (i know there are times when we think differently ... as any parent/carer would .. but in general, childcare is rewarding). The idea of being able to provide great care in a home setting, even more so, especially if I can concentrate on a small group of two or three children. So I'm not prepared to just give up on my dream.

 

The idea of providing home support for a family with a disabled child interests me. I already do this in their home or taking the child on outings and I work for a care provider, so I'm not running a business. I wonder whether I would be allowed to be employed by a parent (many already employ Personal Assistants) but provide the care in my own home. I would be registered with Ofsted; family CRB checked etc etc just as if I were offering a self-employed childminding service but in fact, employed by the parents.

 

I'm not sure about the legalities though of this, even if a parent were to go the extra mile and want to be my employer. It's asking a lot from them. I know of some parents who struggle finding suitable wrap-around-school care for their children with special needs. Some parents feel awkward about having their children cared for in their own home whilst they go out. There are pros and cons I suppose.

 

Just a thought. I am genuine about wishing to childmind, special needs or not, they are all equally great to me. Our neighbourhood needs more young chatter around anyway, be a tonic

 

Feeling very supported. Was ready to give up but open to suggestions. Thanks everyone.

[Guest]

HoneyPancakes, it sounds a great idea to share the business with another childminder. There are lots of positives there, companionship being just one of them. xx

[AnonyMouse_1469]

I would definately check your own deeds though.........like Lashes, mine is an ex-local authority house and our original tenancy said we could keep a pig, chickens and pigeons(!), When we bought it, the deeds state we cannot keep a caravan on our drive, or outside our home, or keep a business vehicle either. Lord knows why. Infact, two neighbours DO have business vehicles and one runs a jewellery business from her house. I guess it's all down to neighbourly tolerance though, and your neighbour seems to have non of this. Children?? For heaven's sake...not in my neighbourhood!! Pity them, they sound awful people. I hope you find a solution to this, one that works for you and the children you hope to care for

[AnonyMouse_29641]

Follow the money there Hyacinth. It's marvellous that you want to provide specialised services but access to funding is increasingly important. And if you're not filling all your places you won't be paying yourself enough money. Parents of disabled children may have funds that they can spend as they choose to support their children, but local authorities, HMRC, university etc often hold the purse strings.

 

It sounds like you would quickly be eligible to provide funded places for 3-4 year olds (but the money is poor). Funded places for two year olds is very good if you live in an area with eligible children. Unfortunately I don't??! I don't know where special needs funding comes from but I'd be interested to find out.

 

For me it has been most important to be available for my own children, but as they grow more independent I am becoming more interested in earning a proper income some time in the future. I recommend putting on a business head.

 

Very best of luck,

 

Honey

[Guest]

Thanks HoneyPancakes, Narnia and Lilybeth. So much lovely support. Lots of people have suggested that the deed thing won't hold water, and hopefully this is right, but we're not in a financial position to risk being sued. Definitely going ahead with registration now that I've heard so many encouraging comments but will tread carefully about operating .. lots more advice needed first I think.

 

To be honest, I just want to childmind from home, in whatever capacity. If it takes a while to set up because of this hurdle then I'll carry on with my current job(s) until it's sorted.

 

Best wishes to you all with your ventures. .. and bless you for taking the trouble to advise and offer support xxx

[Guest]

unfortunately this happened to me 20 years ago when I wanted to start a very small preschool ( 6 children) in my own home and in the end I had to get my deeds changed by going through with a planning application and i had one neighbour complain but I did get the permission. The neighbour continued to complain the next 10 years whilst I ran from my own home, to the point that he even had a noise abatement officer make a report into the amount of noise coming from the children playing in the garden. I don't have any advice to give but hope you can find a solution and that you are able to follow your dream just as I did all those years ago

[Guest]

It would probably be worth speaking to a conveyancer about the deeds. My property deeds state I cannot alter the property without permission from the person I pay ground rent to and I didn't know this before we had a loft conversion done. When we remortgaged the conveyancer noticed the clause and set up a simple one off indemnity payment to cover us in case anyone came asking in the future. I'm not saying it will be that simple but they may have experience of your situation and be able to give better advice in terms of property law than say NCMA. Good luck though.