Is childminding classed as a business? Neighbour threatening legal act

[AnonyMouse_8466]

This is such a sad situation for you to find yourself in, especially as you have gone out of your way to consult with your neighbours and reassure them about your plans. It is awful when one person's objections can stand in the way of another's dream, and I can well understand how disappointed and fed up you must be.

 

However, I think it can be extremely threatening for some elderly people who have left their child bearing years far behind them, to suddenly be faced with the prospect of having very young children about the place. They may well have had their reservations when you spoke to them before, but didn't want to make a fuss. Now this person may have given your neighbours 'permission' to voice their concerns by going to talk to them and raising all these objections. It doesn't necessarily make them bad people - their concerns about your childminding business may be founded in very real fears and a misconception about the impact it will have on their lives rather than a wish to put a spanner in your works out of spite. Although I'm not sure about that one neighbour's motivations.

 

There has been some great advice here about lines of enquiry you might follow up to re-check your legal position. Try not to demonise your neighbours though: smile sweetly at them and keep the lines of communication open. Ultimately you have to go on living there, whatever the outcome of this battle you've found yourself fighting. You have so much passion for the work - I really hope you win through in the end. :1b

[AnonyMouse_15046]

Happymaz is right. You need to look at the bigger picture in terms of your relationship with your neighbours. You may or may not find a way to begin childminding but, either way you still need to be able to live amongst them for some time to come without feeling negative vibes every time your eyes meet over the fence.

 

Just a thought, but have you considered fostering? There are lots of children crying out for stable caring home with couples whose own children are older. This may be even less popular with your neighbours but it isn't a business as such.

 

You could also apply to be respite carers. Good, reliable, kind people stepping in to give families whose children have disabilitiesmake an enormous difference to their quality of life and they are so hard to find in some areas. Again you would be paid by Social Services or from a direct payments budget but you wouldn't be running your own business.

[AnonyMouse_2732]

Those are good suggestions, Upsy Daisy!

But still good luck with the childminding.

[Guest]

Thanks Sue, UpsyDaisy and HappyMAz. Of course you are right about my more mature neighbours, they've also been unnecessarily upset by the one neighbour (not elderly) who quite simply has never wanted children on the estate anyway. Other neighbours have explained that, whilst their own children were young, she made life hard for them. Now that they are grown she is polite. It's very tricky, I can see the dynamics of this and understand that, once I'm up and running the elderly neighbours' concerns will fade because I'm not going to become a nuisance. They are so far away from my garden anyway that they can't even see or hear anything. The only person who will be able to see my garden is the one who does not like children. I guess that she is the crux of the problem really.

 

I have remained polite, tricky as it has been. I'm not sure how easy it will be to remain polite if my opposite neighbour continues to cause me problems but, you are correct of course that ultimately me and my family live here and nobody likes there to be bad feeling when they are out and about in their garden etc. The neighbours who have told me that they support me are more reluctant to fight my case because (understandably I suppose) they don't want to be living inside a storm. Especially when it might upset our elderly neighbours.

 

If only they could trust me. I wouldn't ever want to cause genuine distress and I know that there won't be any nuisance. I am talking about a couple of children, maybe three at most. They would stay on my property unless I went out with them to the park etc. I have brought my own children up here and there has never been an issue, they are respectful and pleasant. I have a large driveway which will accomodate at least three cars and in any case, there is plenty of parking space a short walk away, off of our road. If I thought that there was a genuine problem I would understand, but it has just been incited by one person who we are sure would carry out the legal action threat if I didn't take her seriously.

 

Thanks again for your advice. I need to make sure that I keep this in perspective. Going to proceed with application and wait and see what happens.

 

Much, much appreciated,

 

Hyacinth xxx

[AnonyMouse_15046]

I think I may be a very bad person for thinking this but......

 

........maybe you could let slip to one or two people that all this worry about childminding breaching a covenant has made you review your options and you're considering applying to foster teenagers.

 

Say that you'd particularly like to take on those whose previous placements have broken down due to behaviour problems. You know it will be hard going and you'll have to take a lot on the chin but you feel that it would be worth it to make a difference to one or two youngsters when everyone else has given up on them.

 

That might make them rethink their objections to a few under eights coming round for a couple of hours after school every day.

[Guest]

Tee hee .. Upsy Daisy .. that's a naughty but very tempting thought.. xx

[Guest sn0wdr0p]

Just before I opened my nursery some of the neighbours were a little miffed when I went to speak to them so I made sure I dropped into the conversation that the police were interested in renting the building to run a youth club - quite true. I do try to consider them and do not allow the children out to play before 10am and they only play at the front of my nursery not at the back which backs on to their gardens which looses me valuable outdoor play space..

[Guest]

I dont think a neighbour can stop you from childminding. I had a neighbour complain when I applied for change of use on my premises and wanted to caqre for ten children. It was denied, I appealed and won. Heres a section from our local planning dept:

1. Do you need permission
2. Common Projects
3. Working from Home

Working from home Planning Permission

You do not necessarily need planning permission to work from home. The key test is whether the overall character of the dwelling will change as a result of the business.

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If the answer to any of the following questions is 'yes', then permission will probably be needed:

• Will your home no longer be used mainly as a private residence?
• Will your business result in a marked rise in traffic or people calling?
• Will your business involve any activities unusual in a residential area?
• Will your business disturb your neighbours at unreasonable hours or create other forms of nuisance such as noise or smells?

Whatever business you carry out from your home, whether it involves using part of it as a bed-sit or for 'bed and breakfast' accommodation, using a room as your personal office, providing a childminding service, for hairdressing, dressmaking or music teaching, or using buildings in the garden for repairing cars or storing goods connected with a business - the key test is: is it still mainly a home or has it become business premises?

[Guest jacinabox64]

I've never wrote on any of these forums before, so hope this makes sense! Depending how long you have lived at your property, the deeds stating about business are usually void after about 10 years. ( well mine was anyway) Ours said no walls around your home, no caravans or businesses to be run from homes, but after about 6 years things started to change! Contact you local authority planning with a letter stating that you are starting childminding, the approximate times and amount of cars attending, I know this is guess work but it wont be more than three cars at any one time. Hope this helps. I'm just setting up myself having just completed my training course. Good Luck.

[Guest]

Thanks Jacinabox, and wishing you well with your new start. That's really useful, lots of people have suggested that the restrictions don't hold water over time. I'm going to get some legal advice myself now, either via Pacey or a local solicitor. I'm really hoping .. fingers crossed.

 

Have you applied to Ofsted for your first registration yet? I have just realised that I'll need to pay for the DBS checks for my family ... just missed the deadline .. never mind .. increases the motivation to make this work ..

[Guest]

And thanks Sue Jane too, and Snowdrop. So supportive and helpful. Lots of really valuable information xx

[AnonyMouse_3139]

Hello jacinabox, welcome to the forum :D

[AnonyMouse_64]

Welcome jacinabox64 - thank you for posting. I hope having got your first post out of the way, you join in much more from now on :1b Also welcome to suejane as I see you too are new to posting on the forum. :1b

[AnonyMouse_2732]

Ah, welcome to you both, jacinabox64 and suejane!

 

Sue :1b

[Guest]

Frustrated .. but more enlightened. I have had so much wonderful advice, however, not looking good at all. I spoke with a solicitor today and, although he was very understanding, the fact is that our deeds are clear in our case. If I were to be sued for breach of contract then it could be that the damages claimable would be negligible, however, I would be liable for the legal costs which could be substantial. Apparently, there are solicitors who will take on a case such as this just to be able to earn the legal costs. I simply cannot take that risk, which is such a shame.

 

He has suggested though that I could approach my neighbours to ask if they would agree to a temporary, specific lifting of the restriction. We could identify the areas for concern and make stipulations about my conduct. The paperwork would state that this still protects the restrictive covenant.

 

Still not great though. Just not sure if that would be feasible.

 

I really hope that no-one else ever has to go through this. It has been heartbreaking.

 

Thanks again,

Hyacinth

[AnonyMouse_3139]

So much for being open and honest at the start! So sorry, I have no ideas for you

[AnonyMouse_3139]

A small bunch of flowers or fruit basket delivered by children to all the neighbours who were supportive might be nice, basket of nettles to the moaner is up to you!

[AnonyMouse_8466]

He has suggested though that I could approach my neighbours to ask if they would agree to a temporary, specific lifting of the restriction. We could identify the areas for concern and make stipulations about my conduct. The paperwork would state that this still protects the restrictive covenant.

 

This sounds like a good idea to me. What the neighbours might also be worried about is the 'thin end of the wedge' effect - if you go ahead and run a childminding business from your home, what is to stop someone new coming in and starting to sell second hand cars from their driveway?

 

At least if you offered them this kind of mediation you should be able to sit down and explore what their fears are and show them how you will avoid making those fears a reality. Writing it all down in a 'contract' of sorts would give them the reassurance they need. Mind you, they'd be watching you like a hawk waiting for you to transgress, but you're very confident that your childminding business isn't any kind of threat to their lifestyles, so you shouldn't have any problems in keeping to your side of the bargain.

 

Good luck - don't give up hope. This solution might just work!

[Steve]

It would be even better if it gave them the opportunity to realise something they've obviously forgotten - that the sound of children playing is better than birdsong!

[AnonyMouse_19762]

It would be even better if it gave them the opportunity to realise something they've obviously forgotten - that the sound of children playing is better than birdsong!

 

Oh so true - couldn't have put it better myself :1b

 

Further to that what happened to 'tolerance' and 'live and let live' - two excellent qualities in my humble..........

[AnonyMouse_8282]

See, I've got a nasty side............

 

I'd be making a 'For Sale' sign -

 

Then getting friends together to come and view it..... making sure each 'viewing family' had a least 7 very noisy children !!!!

 

xxx

[AnonyMouse_19762]

louby - I am shocked

 

Not really - sounds like plan to me! :1b

 

Where are you hyacinth - I can gather a bit of a 'rabble' together for you!

[AnonyMouse_3139]

You need teenagers carrying guitars and drum sticks arriving on throaty motorbikes or suped up little corsa's with blacked out windows

Edited June 25, 2013 by Rea

[Guest]

Ha ha .. that's really cheered me up !! The image of that will keep me going for ages I reckon. Can you imagine her face?! Maybe we could even take the sign down then 'house swap' for a while, encouraging the new owners to be as loud as possible. Ha ha .. I love to hear kids being loud and having fun.

 

Seriously though, I think that we'll end up moving sooner or later. I was having a great chat with my next door neighbour today but generally, there is a real lack of community here. I have always been lucky to have that before and (although we've been here 8 years).. we still hardly know each other's names. Neighbours used to deliver each others babies at one time, be enough to ask someone here to take delivery of a parcel ... xx

 

Lovely community spirit here though. Good that we can laugh x

[Guest]

Planning permission and covenants are two different things as we found out to our cost. We had 3 difficult teenage boys next door and 2 very young children. After many previous incidents the final straw was when they had a loud conversation about oral sex in the garden (intended to be over heard and shock us) while friends and their young children were visiting. The friends politely left followed by much laughter from next door. We erected a fence between the properties soon after. We checked with the local planning office as to what height and type it could be, spoke of our intentions to the parents and hand delivered a letter informing them of our intent in 28 days to do this all inorder so we thought

 

They waited until the work was complete then issued us with a solitor written removal notice under the terms of the a convenant on our deeds that stated no fence could be more than 3ft 6". The deeds were written in 1927 and the deed to the land in 1584!! We took legal advice and there was nothing we could do without a long legal battle that may incur large costs. The fencing cost £1000 but we still had to pay for it removing and replacing with a lower fence although we took the 3ft 6" from the fence posts and arched the top.

 

I can also not make bricks on my land

[Guest]

Biccy, that's terrible. When solicitors get involved there should be a legal requirement for neighbours to behave reasonably. Eg speaking to you before the expense of a fence at least.

[Guest]

We had the same issue a number of years ago when we moved into a new house as child minders (My husband and I are both child minders)

 

We spoke to our planning office and were told that we were a De Minimus Busniss,and so didn't need to apply for planning. If however you neighbours go ahead and make a complaint to your planning office they are likely to look into it, I am very sure you will be told there is nothing to worry about. I suggest you confront the fear and speak to planning now and you should get the reassurance you are looking for. I have been child minding over 30 years and have never know a child minder needing to get planning permission and even if you do have to apply I am sure you will get it.

 

As for Deed of Covenants, you might be advised to speak to a solicitor. The important thing is why was it put in place and who was it there to protect. It is likely that the original reason for the deed is long gone. And if your business is like ours described by Planning as De Minimus Business it is consider too insignificant to be glassed fully as a business.

 

Good luck, our neighbours have been awful over the years, they called the tax office to report us for running a business and the local authority, who all visited us and said what we are doing is absolutely fine. So we won but it caused many sleepless nights for us along the way.

[AnonyMouse_29641]

Welcome fellow childminder Movawigmore.

[Guest]

Cant't believe this post. How on earth are you registering to be a Childminder without knowing the basic facts. Firstly, of course Childminding is a business and yes you certainly do need planning permission. (Usually the Council send you a letter confirming that it is OK to run a Childminding Business from your premises but stipulate that if there are ANY complaints from neighbours they will look into the matter with a view to revoking their permission. If you go ahead without this you will certainly incur a lot of aggravation, very high legal costs and the loss of your business. OFSTED sometimes ask to see your planning permission letter when inspecting.

 

If your deeds stipulate you cannot run a business then you should seriously think about getting a job in a nursery/pre school or moving to somewhere else.

 

You really should have checked this before embarking on Childminder Training.

 

Sorry to seem so harsh, but it really is basic information and you should have checked this before proceeding with your application.

 

Laura

[AnonyMouse_3139]

I'm sure in hindsight hyacinth wishes she had looked into it beforehand, but I for one wouldn't have known anything concerning deeds or covenants before I read this. I certainly wouldn't know looking after children in your own home could throw up such intolerance from people.

Its about knowing the questions to ask isn't it and that's not always apparent!