What to do next?

[AnonyMouse_42829]

Sorry but I need to vent and hoping some of you will be sympathetic to our situation!

 

My SENCO asked for our area SENCO to come in to observe one of our children who is displaying very hurtful behaviour towards his peers and my staff. This has been getting progressively worse and he now constantly needs a member of staff to support him during sessions to prevent him from hurting children. The SENCO and key person have been observing the behaviour and events that lead up to incidents occurring but we can see no pattern to the behaviour or any particular trigger.

 

Anyway, after being sick and tired of staff getting punched and slapped in the face by this child every time they speak with him about his behaviour, the area SENCO came in to observe him yesterday. Of course, he was an angel and she very much pointed the finger of blame on the pre-school saying that we are not stimulating him and she is sick and tired of us wasting her time! I was gobsmacked and felt totally unsupported by her. Now I am not saying that we don't have some areas for improvement but I felt the comments were unfair and I don't feel one observation was enough to make such judgements when she didn't even see how his behaviour can be. The SENCO challenged some of the claims she was making and we had a discussion yesterday about what we can do next.

 

Today, we have been offering him lots of opportunities and giving him responsibilities to keep him "stimulated" and engaged. However, so far I have had one smack in the face and he has hurt 2 children. I am narrowing this down to problems with sharing.

 

Argh!! What to do next? So frustrated and no clue where else to go with it!

[AnonyMouse_39602]

oh dear Tinker bell - this is very frustrating for you and your team especially when you are not getting support from your area SENCO . I trust that you and your colleagues are taking a consistent approach with dealing with this behaviour ? all using same techniques and consequences ? have your observations being done using the ABC approach - you mention possibly sharing ? Have you spoken to parents regarding this behaviour - any changes at home/routine , sleeping etc

How old is this child - is this part of the learning development for his age .

 

I am concerned that your staff are being hurt also and it depends on how severe this behaviour is becoming - does this child have good verbal communication skills

or is this some of his frustration

 

Could your senco deliver some behaviour training to your staff

[AnonyMouse_42829]

oh dear Tinker bell - this is very frustrating for you and your team especially when you are not getting support from your area SENCO . I trust that you and your colleagues are taking a consistent approach with dealing with this behaviour ? all using same techniques and consequences ? have your observations being done using the ABC approach - you mention possibly sharing ? Have you spoken to parents regarding this behaviour - any changes at home/routine , sleeping etc

How old is this child - is this part of the learning development for his age .

 

I have spoken to all my staff about how to consistently deal with this behaviour. We all remove him from the area and take him to a "reflection area" of the pre-school to speak with him. We do not raise our voices and if he reacts by hitting us, we simply say "I don't like it when you do that, so I am going to move away from you now" The SENCO has been using the ABC approach but I may now look at all staff taking turns in observing using this technique as I think it would be good for other people's views on what is seen.

 

We have spoken to this parent countless times about his behaviour. She has started to get very defensive saying that he doesn't do it at home and that they have no problems with him at home. This child is 3 (4 in Jan) and is the only child in his home, living with his mother, uncle and grandparents. The parent has taken a dislike to our SENCO now saying that it only happens when she is in on sessions!! I have corrected this statement by explaining that our SENCO is responsible alongside the keyworker, for speaking with parents about behaviour.

 

I am concerned that your staff are being hurt also and it depends on how severe this behaviour is becoming - does this child have good verbal communication skills

or is this some of his frustration

 

Could your senco deliver some behaviour training to your staff

 

The child is able to clearly communicate what he has done wrong. He will tell you that he should have kind hands at pre-school and tells me he hurts children because he wants what they have. This isn't always the reason but I am finding that sharing is the main culprit of this behaviour now.

 

I have in house training scheduled for September delivered by the SENCO to assist us in ensuring we are uniform in our approach to behaviour management.

 

I am on the hunt for some activities to promote turn taking and sharing now.

 

Thanks for you reply Lashes2508

[AnonyMouse_5664]

I have a little boy similar to this in our nursery. I recently read the book called 'you can't come to my birthday party' by Betsy Clark....I think....about conflict resolution in young children I think it is really good and we have been using her approach and I can honestly say it works, even with children who aren't confident in communicating. As far as his behaviour goes, why don't you video him to show the area senco. And I know someone will say you have to have parents permission, and I know you do. However sometimes it is the only way to show behaviour. We did this once, with head teachers approval, to show some very violent behaviour of a nursery child to the parent who didn't believe us. Once the dad had seen it, he backed right off and was very apologetic. Prior to that he had been belligerent and aggressive. We deleted the footage in front of him so he was happy with that.

[AnonyMouse_39602]

I have spoken to all my staff about how to consistently deal with this behaviour. We all remove him from the area and take him to a "reflection area" of the pre-school to speak with him. We do not raise our voices and if he reacts by hitting us, we simply say "I don't like it when you do that, so I am going to move away from you now" The SENCO has been using the ABC approach but I may now look at all staff taking turns in observing using this technique as I think it would be good for other people's views on what is seen.

 

We have spoken to this parent countless times about his behaviour. She has started to get very defensive saying that he doesn't do it at home and that they have no problems with him at home. This child is 3 (4 in Jan) and is the only child in his home, living with his mother, uncle and grandparents. The parent has taken a dislike to our SENCO now saying that it only happens when she is in on sessions!! I have corrected this statement by explaining that our SENCO is responsible alongside the keyworker, for speaking with parents about behaviour.

 

 

The child is able to clearly communicate what he has done wrong. He will tell you that he should have kind hands at pre-school and tells me he hurts children because he wants what they have. This isn't always the reason but I am finding that sharing is the main culprit of this behaviour now.

 

I have in house training scheduled for September delivered by the SENCO to assist us in ensuring we are uniform in our approach to behaviour management.

 

I am on the hunt for some activities to promote turn taking and sharing now.

 

Thanks for you reply Lashes2508

mmm, only child and in a home surrounded by adults - I wonder if he may not have any other opportunities socially to share with other children and is not learning about sharing at home - possibly getting his own way or no consistency at home . parents don't like hear their child is being unkind , hence the defensive response or possibly for reasons above they don't deal with it.

Are you finding the other children are now isolating this child - we have had 2 children displaying similar behaviour - one has now turned a corner - we spoke with parents and all staff consistent in approach - using timer as visual aid in 'reflection time' and also gave choices to child - e.g warning given first and explaination as to why we do not want that behaviour , encouraging communication with adult support , 'you have a choice' - is a method we have found works well as gives child responsibility for their behaviour/actions. He did have a real attachment issue with mum and communication problems.

our other child is a 'biter' but is young (2) and has had a lot going on at home , move from abroad, new baby and then mum not knowing how to deal with it - so she has been on board with his behaviour and techniques to deal with it.

 

It may be that you can find something this child is really interested in and use that to promote good behaviour - a child i once taught was interested in dinosaurs - together we decorated a tube with dinosaurs and used eggs . Started morning with 5 eggs and took away when inappropriate behaviour was observed but then put one back when he ws showing good behaviour or something kind .

Keep emphasising your 'golden rules' at morning register/circle time and show this child how the other child feels when this happens , i have often used role play at register time with the children to emphasis how our actions can make someone feel.

 

 

We have observed our 'biter' using tracking - I personally think this child may have other underlying issues but waiting til September and observe him with our |area SEnco

 

Not sure I have added anything to help you but do know how upsetting and frustrating it can be x

[AnonyMouse_42829]

I have a little boy similar to this in our nursery. I recently read the book called 'you can't come to my birthday party' by Betsy Clark....I think....about conflict resolution in young children I think it is really good and we have been using her approach and I can honestly say it works, even with children who aren't confident in communicating. As far as his behaviour goes, why don't you video him to show the area senco. And I know someone will say you have to have parents permission, and I know you do. However sometimes it is the only way to show behaviour. We did this once, with head teachers approval, to show some very violent behaviour of a nursery child to the parent who didn't believe us. Once the dad had seen it, he backed right off and was very apologetic. Prior to that he had been belligerent and aggressive. We deleted the footage in front of him so he was happy with that.

 

Thanks Dreamgirl, it's encouraging to know that it's not just us and I can completely sympathise with you. I have just found the book your recommend so may have to purchase this if you say it works so well. Like the idea of videoing the behaviour too. I just felt like our area SENCO didn't believe us and totally sided with the parent that it was our fault.

[AnonyMouse_5664]

I think the book is quite expensive. Someone gave me it- am feeling a bit of a responsibility now!!!! However I do personally think it is worth it. It gives very clear steps on how to deal with conflict and how to use it as an opportunity to learn. It's all about helping children learn to sort out their own problems. Obviously it doesn't happen over night but we have definitely found it useful. Some of it you might think it is obvious, but it is packaged in a proper plan so that every adult can follow it.

[AnonyMouse_42829]

mmm, only child and in a home surrounded by adults - I wonder if he may not have any other opportunities socially to share with other children and is not learning about sharing at home - possibly getting his own way or no consistency at home . parents don't like hear their child is being unkind , hence the defensive response or possibly for reasons above they don't deal with it.

This is absolutely what I was thinking. I can totally appreciate it is difficult for parents to hear.

 

Are you finding the other children are now isolating this child - we have had 2 children displaying similar behaviour - one has now turned a corner - we spoke with parents and all staff consistent in approach - using timer as visual aid in 'reflection time' and also gave choices to child - e.g warning given first and explaination as to why we do not want that behaviour , encouraging communication with adult support , 'you have a choice' - is a method we have found works well as gives child responsibility for their behaviour/actions. He did have a real attachment issue with mum and communication problems.

our other child is a 'biter' but is young (2) and has had a lot going on at home , move from abroad, new baby and then mum not knowing how to deal with it - so she has been on board with his behaviour and techniques to deal with it.

 

This is my concern and I have expressed this to the parent that he will be labelled by the other children and I don't want him to become isolated because the other children are scared of him. He did say to me the other day that no one wants to play with him so I think this is starting already. We don't use a timer at present but this could be something to add to reflection time. This child does have some things going on at home with a poorly grandmother so that may explain it too

 

It may be that you can find something this child is really interested in and use that to promote good behaviour - a child i once taught was interested in dinosaurs - together we decorated a tube with dinosaurs and used eggs . Started morning with 5 eggs and took away when inappropriate behaviour was observed but then put one back when he ws showing good behaviour or something kind .

Keep emphasising your 'golden rules' at morning register/circle time and show this child how the other child feels when this happens , i have often used role play at register time with the children to emphasis how our actions can make someone feel.

 

We did a "treat jar" using marbles. I sat with him and created a jar decorated with pictures of his favourite things to do at pre-school. When he got 5 marbles he would be rewarded with a treat. 1 marble was taken away when inappropriate behaviour took place. However, I just dont think he understood the concept and it all got a bit lost in translation.

 

I am working on lots of visuals around the room with a kind hands display, golden rules display with actual photos of the children showing good behaviour and a positive behaviour photo album/book for reference in circle time.

 

We have observed our 'biter' using tracking - I personally think this child may have other underlying issues but waiting til September and observe him with our |area SEnco

 

Not sure I have added anything to help you but do know how upsetting and frustrating it can be x

 

Lashes2508, you have provided some good ideas for me and I really appreciate your help x

[AnonyMouse_39602]

it sounds like your already got some great ideas Tinkerbell and it is always good to come on here and know your not alone in your situation - maybe we should have an update in September and compare notes ! good luck x

[AnonyMouse_42829]

Yes that's a great idea Lashes2508. I really hope we can make some progress in the next 2 weeks ready for the next term

[AnonyMouse_31752]

Hi didn't want to read and run on you tinkerbell as this is something we have struggled with recently and you are certainly not alone both in having a child like this , the parent response and the lack of support from SENCO's unfourtunately!!! I put a thread up on here about Easter time in much the same space as you are now. I can see others have given you some really good ideas I don't know if any of these will help too.

 

We firstly did keep records of everything that happened in a kind of cross between ABC approach and a quick chronology this gave us the times it was happening, people involved (both adults and children) and very brief accounts of what happened (just facts) this helped us look for patterns, it is also harder for someone to say that it isn't happening (even if they don't see it) when there are dates times and accounts of what happened, it also is a document that you can show parents if you need to (although we wouldn't have shown them the other children's names as that is our policy not to identify other children and the parents we were dealing with were vindictive towards other children and families). It is also good to note when it is NOT happening as this means at that time something is going 'right' and therefore you can see what the difference is when it is happening to not happening.

 

We used then and now boards, so visual aids with this is what we need to do now, then after that we can so this...

 

We also had a spot timer which although we use sand timers etc... for the rest of the setting the spot timer worked better for the child we were struggling with. Basically it was a largish circle on an key ring (so we could clip it to a belt/trousers etc.. and carry it around with us) you then have about five smaller circles velcroed on the larger circle. You then explain that you either have to wait for a toy until all the spots are gone or you can play with a toy until all the spots are gone. YOU take the spots off not the child and you can basically make the spots any length of time you like. The idea is to be successful so you could make each spot a minute to start but you may find they come off every 30 seconds to start with or on a bad day, and you can increase time represented as well. It works for all sorts of things where you need 'time' so we have used it for the amount to time sat on the carpet or at an activity for those children who find sticking with something difficult. Hope that makes sense. WE found sometimes the first few spots to come off where maybe a minute but then you may have to speed up a bit to get the rest off. Eventually the child gets the idea and the spots come off more consistently.

 

We found lots of songs/stories about emotion helped to as this then meant that children began to have the vocab to explain how they felt rather than lash out.

 

I have to say though there were many days when despite all this and more we just had to 'get through' I don't think you should allow your SENCO to treat you like that though, I may have made myself unpopular but I emailed my LEA, the SENCO and just kept on with all written records kept so that there was accountability and just kept jumping up a down. The support was still shaky to be honest we still felt like we were on our own out on a limb but it did make the SEN team aware that we were not going to just lay down and go away.

 

When the child lashed out at staff we tried all sorts ignoring it, turning our back so any 'blows' where on areas of us that didn't hurt so much and just kept on, we used a low tone with short sharp sentences 'no hitting' 'no punching that is not ok' and then turn your back. where possible we moved the other children and or any toys that could be used as weapons or he could hurt himself with and sometimes just had to let him go for it until he calmed down, Then carried on as normal and tired to use other activities or times of the day to imput the behaviour we wanted to see as at the time he would not have or could not hear us so it was a waste of everybodies time.

 

I don't know if any of the above helps tinkerbell but you can offload at me anytime I would never see anyone left in the situation we were in it is frustrating, horrid and to be honest nearly finished me last year, in the end our situation became a safeguarding one and I had to report it and as a result the parents removed the child from our setting at Easter. However I can honestly say my staff were still recovering at the end of the summer it takes it out of you!!! keep strong keep smiling xxx

[Guest lillybeth]

Hi when you say things are going on at home do you think this little boy has attachment issues. We had a little boy this last year who displayed similar behaviour to what you are saying. He had twin siblings born early and one died just before he was due to come out of hospital. The little boy we had was such hard work, I got the health visitor involved which led to CAMHS (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) being involved. They did give us advice so perhaps this might help. Also the area SENCO has no right to treat you in this way I would go to her manager and talk it through with her. It is so hard because children soon pick up on this behaviour and our little boy used to get blamed for things when he wasn't even at nursery. One thing I did observe a lot of the behaviour he displayed was when he saw a child doing something wrong he used to try and deal with it, he didn't have the communication skills to express himself adequately even though his language skills were good this is when he used to lash out.

[AnonyMouse_42829]

Hi didn't want to read and run on you tinkerbell as this is something we have struggled with recently and you are certainly not alone both in having a child like this , the parent response and the lack of support from SENCO's unfourtunately!!! I put a thread up on here about Easter time in much the same space as you are now. I can see others have given you some really good ideas I don't know if any of these will help too.

 

We firstly did keep records of everything that happened in a kind of cross between ABC approach and a quick chronology this gave us the times it was happening, people involved (both adults and children) and very brief accounts of what happened (just facts) this helped us look for patterns, it is also harder for someone to say that it isn't happening (even if they don't see it) when there are dates times and accounts of what happened, it also is a document that you can show parents if you need to (although we wouldn't have shown them the other children's names as that is our policy not to identify other children and the parents we were dealing with were vindictive towards other children and families). It is also good to note when it is NOT happening as this means at that time something is going 'right' and therefore you can see what the difference is when it is happening to not happening.

 

I think this is something we will have to sharpen up on, particularly recording when he is doing something right.

 

We used then and now boards, so visual aids with this is what we need to do now, then after that we can so this...

 

We also had a spot timer which although we use sand timers etc... for the rest of the setting the spot timer worked better for the child we were struggling with. Basically it was a largish circle on an key ring (so we could clip it to a belt/trousers etc.. and carry it around with us) you then have about five smaller circles velcroed on the larger circle. You then explain that you either have to wait for a toy until all the spots are gone or you can play with a toy until all the spots are gone. YOU take the spots off not the child and you can basically make the spots any length of time you like. The idea is to be successful so you could make each spot a minute to start but you may find they come off every 30 seconds to start with or on a bad day, and you can increase time represented as well. It works for all sorts of things where you need 'time' so we have used it for the amount to time sat on the carpet or at an activity for those children who find sticking with something difficult. Hope that makes sense. WE found sometimes the first few spots to come off where maybe a minute but then you may have to speed up a bit to get the rest off. Eventually the child gets the idea and the spots come off more consistently.

 

I love your idea of the spot timer. I will have to get creative and make a few of these for staff I think as not only this child could benefit from this idea. Thanks Johanna1

 

We found lots of songs/stories about emotion helped to as this then meant that children began to have the vocab to explain how they felt rather than lash out.

 

I'd be interested to hear the songs and stories you use with the children if you don't mind sharing?

 

I have to say though there were many days when despite all this and more we just had to 'get through' I don't think you should allow your SENCO to treat you like that though, I may have made myself unpopular but I emailed my LEA, the SENCO and just kept on with all written records kept so that there was accountability and just kept jumping up a down. The support was still shaky to be honest we still felt like we were on our own out on a limb but it did make the SEN team aware that we were not going to just lay down and go away.

 

When the child lashed out at staff we tried all sorts ignoring it, turning our back so any 'blows' where on areas of us that didn't hurt so much and just kept on, we used a low tone with short sharp sentences 'no hitting' 'no punching that is not ok' and then turn your back. where possible we moved the other children and or any toys that could be used as weapons or he could hurt himself with and sometimes just had to let him go for it until he calmed down, Then carried on as normal and tired to use other activities or times of the day to imput the behaviour we wanted to see as at the time he would not have or could not hear us so it was a waste of everybodies time.

 

I don't know if any of the above helps tinkerbell but you can offload at me anytime I would never see anyone left in the situation we were in it is frustrating, horrid and to be honest nearly finished me last year, in the end our situation became a safeguarding one and I had to report it and as a result the parents removed the child from our setting at Easter. However I can honestly say my staff were still recovering at the end of the summer it takes it out of you!!! keep strong keep smiling xxx

 

Your support is more helpful than you know Johanna1. It is very difficult as I now feel that the SENCO has given the parent all the ammunition she needs to just blame us all the time. Team work is going to be the key here to a consistent and effective approach.

 

I do hope your team are recovering now. Thanks again x

[AnonyMouse_42829]

Hi when you say things are going on at home do you think this little boy has attachment issues.

 

I don't think he has attachment issues in my opinion. I do think this is a situation whereby he hasn't learnt how to share and take turns at home because it has never been a skill he has needed at home. This is now displaying itself at pre-school when there is something he wants but can't have.

 

 

We had a little boy this last year who displayed similar behaviour to what you are saying. He had twin siblings born early and one died just before he was due to come out of hospital. The little boy we had was such hard work, I got the health visitor involved which led to CAMHS (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) being involved. They did give us advice so perhaps this might help. Also the area SENCO has no right to treat you in this way I would go to her manager and talk it through with her. It is so hard because children soon pick up on this behaviour and our little boy used to get blamed for things when he wasn't even at nursery. One thing I did observe a lot of the behaviour he displayed was when he saw a child doing something wrong he used to try and deal with it, he didn't have the communication skills to express himself adequately even though his language skills were good this is when he used to lash out.

 

Thanks for the advice lillybeth. I do think I will call her to discuss my concerns further

[AnonyMouse_39602]

Johanna - i love the idea of the spot timer to as its more mobile and as Tinker bell said can be used for many children

[AnonyMouse_7120]

We too...think we'll all be making spot timers before we go back

[Guest]

Hi I just wanted to say hello and add that everyone's advice on here is great as usual!

 

I have never felt supported by my area SENCO but am lucky that our nursery though private, is seen as part of the school, and we work closely with the school SENCO.

 

I would advocate notes because evidence is what it will come down to eventually if extra help is required!

I like the idea of video too.

 

Wishing you luck x x x

[AnonyMouse_31752]

Tinkerbell the song we used mostly was written by a member of my staff will have to check with her when we go back (we are shut for summer) to see if she minds sharing but mostly it was using baby signs for emotions and actions that you may use with these emotions e.g. when your sad you cry when you are angry you may stamp your feet - actually there is no reason you couldn't do this to the 'happy and you know it' tune (I have done that too just to keep the changes coming in) so maybe when you are sad and you know it have a cry... or when you are angry and you know it stamp your feet.

 

The stories where things like - for sharing - 'Rainbow Fish' where he shares his scales (we did this with story sack) 'Give that back Jack' was another one 'sharing a shell' and then ones centred around emotions like 'Grumpy Gertie' 'when sophie gets angry-really really angry' that sort of thing and another emotions set which has one called 'I feel angry' and then I think there is others for other emotions like 'I feel sad' (I think but going from memory). There is also another set you can get from Amazon I remember one of them is 'cool down and Work through anger'. If I remember any more will let you know!!!

 

Spot timers are fab but handy tip make sure you put velcro on both sides so when you remove the spot you can stick it on the back otherwise you loose the small circles lol