ratios for raising threes

[Guest]

hi all,

I have been wondering about this for a long time and would like to know what you all think! firstly a little background information;

I am a phase leader for nursery and reception in a large primary school and this term we are admitting

8 raising threes in one of our nursery classes. We have two teachers and two EYPS in the room with 32 3 -4 year olds as well as the 8 raising threes. (so making 40 chn in all) I am in the process of employing another adult (TA) to cover the ratios, however my line manger is refusing to see that we need another adult as she says the ratios are fine!

I was really just trying to find out any ideas of other settings that have two year olds in a school based nursery and what your ratios are like.

many thanks in advance for your information

lou

 

 

 

[Guest]

I think another pair of hands would probably be great regardless of ratios!

 

Teachers and EYPS can have 1:13 ratios so 52 children between them!

But under threes are a 1:4 ratio so.....

 

2 EYP's to the 8 under threes and teachers to 26 of your children still leaves 6 children to be covered using THESE ratios

 

However if they are rising threes with birthdays this autumn term I have a feeling that legally you don't have to take on board the 1:4 ratios when in a school maintained nursery

 

I am sure someone will be along shortly who will know for sure!

 

If you can afford it I would get an extra pair of hands for sure!

[AnonyMouse_3139]

http://eyfs.info/forums/topic/36721-rising-threes/?fromsearch=1

this is a previous discussion. I'm afraid I'm in the camp of 'not rising 3 they're 2 year olds'.

[Guest]

Morning!

Thank you for your replies i feel a bit more easy now to have a discussion with my line managerI agree that they should be two year olds and not raising threes and I will be arguing this point with my line manager today! I hope that they will see that we can work better for and with the children if we have the staff - unfortunately my line manager is in the mind of saving money!!!!

[AnonyMouse_9650]

I have recently undertaken Additional Inspector training with Tribal and queried the issue of rising 3's.

 

The trainer took the query back to Tribal and the response was that there is no such thing as a rising 3 - children are either 3 years old or 2 years old.

 

As Inge has said 3 and 4 year olds are either 1:8 or if there is an EYT or QTS in the class/room then 1:13.

 

2 year olds (irrespective of how much they may be rising) are ratio'd at 1:4 irrespective of whether there is an EYT or QTS in the class/room.

 

8 X 2 year olds need 2 staff

26 X 3 and 4 year olds need 2 EYTs or QTSs

6 X 3 and 4 year olds need ANO

 

Total adults required is therefore 5

 

Hope that helps

[AnonyMouse_19762]

 

 

The trainer took the query back to Tribal and the response was that there is no such thing as a rising 3 - children are either 3 years old or 2 years old.

 

 

That's 'music to my ears'! :1b

[AnonyMouse_11396]

And mine Sunnyday.

[AnonyMouse_13401]

I have spent a long time on this issue of rising 3s. It went as far as the DFE lawyers. (I was like a dog with a bone). Rising threes are 2 years old and 1:4 ratio applies. OFFICIAL.

[AnonyMouse_73]

It is interesting though that the OFSTED registration guidance still refers to "rising threes" for the purpose of registration when it talks of schools who take children in the term of their 3rd birthday. It is hardly surprising that some will read this, realise that they do not need separate registration for these "rising threes" and therefore conclude that this applies also to ratios.

[AnonyMouse_3307]

It is interesting though that the OFSTED registration guidance still refers to "rising threes" for the purpose of registration when it talks of schools who take children in the term of their 3rd birthday. It is hardly surprising that some will read this, realise that they do not need separate registration for these "rising threes" and therefore conclude that this applies also to ratios.

Exactly - this is where the variance in understanding is coming from.

[AnonyMouse_38881]

I have spent a long time on this issue of rising 3s. It went as far as the DFE lawyers. (I was like a dog with a bone). Rising threes are 2 years old and 1:4 ratio applies. OFFICIAL.

I had this argument over and over again last term and am likely to again this week. Is there anywhere I can access something 'official' that says this as our LA advisor says it doesn't apply to us.

We have a rising 3 due to start and would be within ratio with her being 2 if she came in the afternoons but not the morning, so anything I can use to support this would be fabulous!

[AnonyMouse_44055]

It is interesting though that the OFSTED registration guidance still refers to "rising threes" for the purpose of registration when it talks of schools who take children in the term of their 3rd birthday. It is hardly surprising that some will read this, realise that they do not need separate registration for these "rising threes" and therefore conclude that this applies also to ratios.

 

This area is of particular interest to me as we would like to take children in the term of their third birthday but as we are not registered for 2 year olds we disregarded the idea. We are a school nursery. If you could link to Ofsted guidance stating that we don't need to amend our registration that would be really helpful. As a point to note I have always felt that in terms of ratios 2 is 2 whether it is 2 years 1 month or 2 years 11 months so any "rising 3's" (2 year olds!) would be catered on a 1:4 ratio.

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

Mel

x

[AnonyMouse_33773]

I've understood that you don't need to change your registration if taking two-year-olds, 'only' make sure that you meet their needs and the legal requirements involved. Perhaps it's a good idea to inform Ofsted though. Ages are no longer stated on the registration certificate, though this may be different for schools.

My question is if it's OK with ratio regulations to have, for example, 9 or 14 three year olds, depending on qualification, and 3 two year olds - if one of the older children can be included in the other's adults' children.

[AnonyMouse_3139]

I think you can include an older child in the lower age group ratio but not a younger one in the older age group ratio :1b

[AnonyMouse_3307]

 

This area is of particular interest to me as we would like to take children in the term of their third birthday but as we are not registered for 2 year olds we disregarded the idea. We are a school nursery. If you could link to Ofsted guidance stating that we don't need to amend our registration that would be really helpful. As a point to note I have always felt that in terms of ratios 2 is 2 whether it is 2 years 1 month or 2 years 11 months so any "rising 3's" (2 year olds!) would be catered on a 1:4 ratio.

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

Mel

x

As far as I understand this it is currently to do with placing the 2yr olds who are funded. As a school if you had 2 year olds you would still need to register, but they can be placed as rising 3s via your LAs 2 yr old programme.

As I understand it!

Cx

[AnonyMouse_44055]

Thanks Catma, I find it all so confusing. The Ofsted Factsheet "Registration Not Required" has this as point 13 on their table of scenarios:

 

 

13

If you are a school or academy that provides education or care for children aged three and over, where at least one child being cared for is a pupil of the school. Children who are two years old when they start school but are three by the end of their first term at school (known as rising threes), may count as age three when deciding whether you need to register.

 

So that indicates no need for additional registration but advice is not consistent.

 

Mel

x

[AnonyMouse_3307]

That is where it is confused I think - this is about the registration, or not, of the provision - ie schools in this instance don't need to - but it is not the statutory framework which is decisive re 1:4.

Cx

[AnonyMouse_44055]

That is where it is confused I think - this is about the registration, or not, of the provision - ie schools in this instance don't need to - but it is not the statutory framework which is decisive re 1:4.

Cx

The 1:4 is not something I would even want to debate, for me that is clear, until the child's third birthday 1:4 is the ratio and so it should be.

However we have had conflicting advice initially being told that we could not take "rising threes" (as per Ofsteds definition) into our school nursery regardless of ratio. I have myself (QTS) and two level three nursery nurses. Our plan was a maximum of 30 children with no more than 4 two year olds at any given time - Four 2 year olds = 1 member of staff, remaining twenty six 3 year olds on 1:13 although in our area attendance is not great so in reality it would be more like 1:10 for the 3 year olds. This document seems to say that we can without affecting our current registration \ requiring further registration. We are not seeking to take them earlier than the term in which they are three - hence why this document is of interest to me!

 

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

Mel

x

[AnonyMouse_3307]

It's all tied up in the delivery of the 2 year old entitlement - for which there are national criteria.