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Ratios when 2 year olds share room with 3-4 year olds

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Hi!

I've read through all the posts I can find about ratios and hope I am not bringing up an old chestnut!

With regard to ratios...I have convinced my Head that 2 year olds are 2 year olds no matter whether they are 'rising 3' or not.

However, we are now debating something else...We have mixed age range rooms...

Does a practitioner who is counted in the 1:4 ratio for 2 year olds when only 3 of the two year olds are in school have 'space' in her quota to be used in the 1:8 ratios for some of the 3-4 year olds?

And how much 'space' does she have??????????

Does that make sense?

I am not comfortable with this. Want to argue my corner further. Value your thoughts.

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AnonyMouse_3735 15+ Years

AnonyMouse_3735

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As others have said you cannot split ratios for a member of staff... if they have a 2 year old the number of children they can look after is 4 no matter if the other children are 3+ , did check with Ofsted on this a while ago now and they confirmed staff have to be allocated either 4 or 8 children not a mix of both ratios.

I know some places use a points system allocated to children and staff.. that would give a different result and usually gives incorrect ratios..

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AnonyMouse_3307 15+ Years

AnonyMouse_3307

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Through work we checked with the DfE what the ratio for "rising 3's" is and they confirmed (as we knew) it is 1-4.

However no-one seems to be reflecting on what happens when they become 36 months in a school nursery and fall under 1:13!

This is where a difficulty lies I believe, talking to some of my schools who are now taking under 3's.

E.g. with 26 spaces a nursery takes 5 x 2 yr olds so they have 21 x 3+. They'd need 4 staff. 2x 1:4 plus 2 x remainder of the 3+) However if the 2 yr olds all become 3 by half term they now have 26x3+ so legally only need 2 staff.

The school could correctly move staff as they are now above ratio. However the children have to change key person etc etc so impact on PSED could be great.

It requires great thought.

Cx

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AnonyMouse_30128 12 Years

AnonyMouse_30128

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Through work we checked with the DfE what the ratio for "rising 3's" is and they confirmed (as we knew) it is 1-4.

However no-one seems to be reflecting on what happens when they become 36 months in a school nursery and fall under 1:13!

This is where a difficulty lies I believe, talking to some of my schools who are now taking under 3's.

E.g. with 26 spaces a nursery takes 5 x 2 yr olds so they have 21 x 3+. They'd need 4 staff. 2x 1:4 plus 2 x remainder of the 3+) However if the 2 yr olds all become 3 by half term they now have 26x3+ so legally only need 2 staff.

The school could correctly move staff as they are now above ratio. However the children have to change key person etc etc so impact on PSED could be great.

It requires great thought.

Cx

but this is the same issue for all of us who take 2 year olds catma...just not to the same extent (though i have no where else to allocate staff to) if i employ key workers to deal with 2 year olds i only need half as many of them when they turn 3

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Guest youngrisers

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why would schools want two year olds, money?

would teachers want to change nappies toileting habits..... NO

leave it to the professionals and let us work with the two year olds who need care, support, time, love and so much more

final word government thinks two year olds are fodder for schools so everything is under one roof It don't work we know it they know it , ratio is higher with two year olds because they need all the above and more......

enough said....Rant over

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AnonyMouse_4869 15+ Years

AnonyMouse_4869

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I've just had to comment to say that in the cases I know of schools who are now taking two year olds are working with the correct ratio of staff for that age group and are employing people, who are talented early years professionals (not teachers), specifically to care for these children in an environment that caters directly for their needs. So in these cases it is not like they have been plonked into a classroom and expected to be 'at school'.

Sorry just had to stand up for people who are doing an amazing job in what could be very difficult circumstances.

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And I feel moved to respond too... the words 'teachers' and 'talented early years professionals' are not mutually exclusive. It is possible for someone to be both of these!. The teachers in our nursery have trained for 3-8 year olds and we also have an EYP trained for 0-5yrs alongside fantastic NNEBs/level 3/4's.

Some schools have Nursery's on site which cater for 0-5yrs and they have had 2 year olds on roll for years. Why do school's want 2 year olds? Yes, they feed the Reception classes but those children were probably always going to come to our school if they are in our catchment and isn't it better that we have get to know them and their families sooner rather than later? They also get to bond with their peer group rather than having to part with them to go off to different schools aged 4.5. In the case of our families (in an area of severe deprivation) we want the two year olds in Nursery because in many cases that is a safer, more positive environment than some of their homes.

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AnonyMouse_12805 15+ Years

AnonyMouse_12805

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I think what you are talking about when you say they cater for 0-5 years is daycare and what the OP and indeed many of us think of when talking about a school nursery is a 3 hour session nursery school. I have to admit I have not seen any school nurseries in our local area that would be as well equipped in staffing or resources to cater for 2 year olds as we are.

I can see schools accepting 2 year olds but whether they will accept the ratios needed is another matter. If your nursery school has a trained EYP, NNEB's AND L3 &4's all working together you are extremely lucky.

Edited by lynned55
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AnonyMouse_73 15+ Years

AnonyMouse_73

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The ratio is not in question (currently) with regard to schools, and I'm not really sure where this notion is coming from. We have a number of schools now offering 2 year provision and just like any other form of provision, some are better than others, some have better resourcing and more qualified staff and some have less...just like in any other kind of setting. Each setting should be taken on its merits, not 'assumed' that because its here or there is must automatically be 'good' or 'bad'. The world just isn't like that.

And yes teachers do change nappies, mop up sick, and clean up every range of bodily fluids. I was doing that over 30 years ago, there's nothing new in that at all.

Yes schools taking 2 year olds have particular challenges, but then so does any setting that has never had two year olds before. Different ones maybe, but nevertheless still challenges. The two year offer is expanding rapidly, and again in September, many settings have reported here that they don't want to take 2 year olds, so provision has to be found somewhere.

Yes there are concerns, for me, mostly the fact that 2 year provision in the future, wont have to be registered separately, which I am presuming also means it wont be inspected separately, since there is no longer a specific section on schools reports for the EYFS. And as yet it hasn't been made clear if future schools inspectors will be required to have knowledge and understanding of 2 year olds if inspecting a school with 2 year provision. For me, that's the real concern. Loss of LA support is another, as schools or other settings taking up this venture have limited if any support.

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AnonyMouse_4869 15+ Years

AnonyMouse_4869

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I agree Edlee, in fact when I used the word teacher I was talking, of course, about a person with QTS, and we all know that it doesn't require QTS to be a 'teacher' in its purest sense!

I would also like to say that I am a teacher in a reception class ( with a level 3 NVQ, a degree in Early childhood studies and QTS! lol) which brings with its fair amount of nappies, vomit and other forms of bodily fluid. Love it every day! (And wishing I didn't have to move further up the school in September because I know where I want to be!)

Definitely well off topic now lol.

 

The settings I know of have been inspected separately to the school on start up, I don't know about what the future holds in terms of inspection for them.

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