AnonyMouse_44288 Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Hi I'm after some advice, we have a boy who is 4 in August, he is still in nappies. Mum suggests each holiday that she is potty training but he always returns in nappies and mum requests we leave him be and don't encourage the use of the toilet. Mums contacted me today to say she's attempted training again over the holiday and he's just not ready, he will not go to the toilet all day for a wee and is only doing a poo every other day. She says she's contacted the health visitor who tells her to keep him in nappies as he's clearly not ready for toilet training, but if he can hold it all day surely he must be aware and therefore potty trainable? This seems odd to me but I am wondering if it's me over thinking it...... Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_38881 Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Hi We had a little boy 2 years ago who went to school not clean and dry. Mum insisted he was at home, although he clearly had no idea what was happening. In Nursery, and in school, we had to ask her to continue with pull ups and we had numerous occasions with poo everywhere. It has taken until well into Y1 to get him clean and dry 90% of the time. We currently have a boy going to school in September who is showing no sign of being out of nappies, although I'm not convinced Mum is trying too hard. HV seem to advise that parents do leave it if they don't seem readyso the one we dealt with 2 years ago wasn't much help. At one stage she said we had to have him in big boy pants like the others - the mess was awful! Showed she didn't know him at all! I wouldn't be convinced your little boy is holding on all day unless you're changing him ( or checking) and he is dry, especially if he's drinking enough. I don;t think you're over thinking at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_44288 Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 Thanks Madmum. I wondered if I should contact his HV myself to ask why she suggests he's left..... What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_38881 Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Worth a try. My experience recently is that health visitors don't seem to know the children very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_44476 Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I personally would say if he can hold it like that then why isn't he ready? Is there any other reason that would mean he wasn't ready? We have a similar thing at the moment with a child but to be honest a lot of it is the parents not wanting him to grow up (they have admitted) and now I think he has almost gone past it if that makes sense. He is embarrassed by it and quite aware yet still adamant won't use the toilet and parents won't push it at all. We tend to big up the other children being grown up using the toilet etc in a not 'in your face' kind of way! It's so hard especially when we only have the children for a limited amount of time! May be worth talking to hv but you probably know the child better than her! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_44288 Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 I personally would say if he can hold it like that then why isn't he ready? Is there any other reason that would mean he wasn't ready? We have a similar thing at the moment with a child but to be honest a lot of it is the parents not wanting him to grow up (they have admitted) and now I think he has almost gone past it if that makes sense. He is embarrassed by it and quite aware yet still adamant won't use the toilet and parents won't push it at all. We tend to big up the other children being grown up using the toilet etc in a not 'in your face' kind of way! It's so hard especially when we only have the children for a limited amount of time! May be worth talking to hv but you probably know the child better than her! Woodlands1997 this is exactly it - I fear mum wants to keep him as a baby. But am I, are we (the setting) failing him by allowing this to continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_30128 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Morning ...right ...after this year i am going to declare myself a toilet training expert! Firstly if a child can hold on for a period of time longer than 2 hours they should be able to be toilet trained (and two nights dry would indicate able to train at night too) however there is a very small window of opportunity to train them before things start to go in the opposite direction as their brain and muscles start to get the wrong messages ......i am taking here about children without enuresis or encopresis. I would point out to Mum that there is a huge part of his developmental journey you cannot fill out if he is not toilet trained and that he is well behind his peers in this respect. Twice this year i have had to persuade parents to toilet train......believe me i take a very dim view of me having to do this but i have just had to bite the bullet...i am here for the best interest of the child first and the parents second (ducks for the response to that!). So i think a firm word is needed and pointing out that as it has been left so long it will now probably take longer so say you want a week to have a go where he should be in pants and she should be ready for lots of washing then at the end of the week you can give her your professional judgement as to whether to continue (bearing in mind this child will shortly start school ) remind her that it will be very difficult for him to start school without being trained during that week it is up to you to make sure it works! Refer her to the ERIC website which has lots of hints and tips for parents . What is your toilet training policy? all of our children are toileted every day......even when they are in nappies because they need to get used to dressing and undressing and sitting on a loo (balance and co-ordination ) and teaching how to wash their hands. There are very few children who cannot be toilet trained at this age (exception of children like madmums) but there seems to be this idea that children are going to wake up one day and say "ok Mum i'd like to use the toilet from now please"! ....rarely happens IMO especially with boys...it has to be fun exciting and motivating!!!!! (find rewards that work!!) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_7120 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Maybe if we took the same stance as schools, and that after a reasonable ( dependent on any other factors ) age, we could contact parents to come in and change them as required they'd soon get on to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I am finding more and more children come in to nursery (with 3 year old funding) and have not even started to toilet train. This year we have as a staff had to work really hard on things like star charts and regular toileting for a few children. I think the changes have happened since the onus was removed to get children toilet trained before they were allowed to start nursery. Last year despite our best efforts two children went into reception in nappies. Neither were young for their year group. I have one young man due to go to reception in September whose mother often sends him in in a nappy because he wants one on!!! I am once again fed up with the responsibilities placed on nursery staff. I am all for supporting parents during this time but it seems more and more parents expect it to be our job! We have those little people just 15 hours (mainly) a week what happens during the other 153 hours??? This is just one more area that some parents don't seem to want to take responsibility for and it makes me cross!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_7120 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Below is a piece from an article on th FB fsf page, it's from a very sensible mum in support of early years workers and all that's expected of them....only I can't figure how to add link here on ipad 'Furthermore, should it really be the job of the nursery staff to teach my child to use the toilet independently? Is it their responsibility to teach her the alphabet or how to hold a pen? I would count all of those things as my job, and while the nursery help with all of these things, it's not their responsibility. If S leaves nursery to start school unable to use the toilet by herself, it will be me who has failed more than the nursery staff.' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_8282 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I was going to say- only Finleysmaid has already found this out too- that there appears to be 'a window of opportunity' which if not caught seems to cause a delay. I was reading about this the other day on a parenting forum and many agreed with this theory. Obviously a child with any kind of SN would (could) be an exception. We have had a parent this year that has come in, taken the child's nappy off left her- then on collection put a nappy back on. She openly admitted the child was only toilet training while with us, and not at home!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_14268 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) Oh my goodness, I was completely oblivious that some children where not potty trained at this age. What on earth is going on? I had to work so hard to get my eldest son potty trained by two and a half so he could attend pre school, it was a great motivator for us both. I would even go as far to say parents who are happy for their kids to still be in nappies at 4 are being neglectful. Obviously that is my opinion and does not mean children with special needs etc. I stand by my policy that we expect all children to be on the potty training journey and can only be in pull ups with extenuating circumstances. Never had any complaints or problems with this and all children who come to us at two and a half are trained or training. Edited April 19, 2014 by zigzag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_3735 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Below is a piece from an article on th FB fsf page, it's from a very sensible mum in support of early years workers and all that's expected of them....only I can't figure how to add link here on ipad 'Furthermore, should it really be the job of the nursery staff to teach my child to use the toilet independently? Is it their responsibility to teach her the alphabet or how to hold a pen? I would count all of those things as my job, and while the nursery help with all of these things, it's not their responsibility. If S leaves nursery to start school unable to use the toilet by herself, it will be me who has failed more than the nursery staff.' http://www.singlemotherahoy.com/2014/04/do-we-expect-too-much-of-nurseries-and.html the article / blog can be found here.. (for ease just copy and paste the URL in ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_38881 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I don't think you can have a policy that says they must be 'on the potty training journey' or 'pull ups only in extenuating circumstances', due to Disability Discrimination legislation. Many children are too young for anyone to say if their lack of toilet training is or isn't medical/SEN. As an Inclusive setting you have to take them, like it or not. The child we had 2 years ago clearly had SEN BUT his Mum didn't accept that which made it far more difficult. I work in a school nursery and we currently have 5 children in nappies, 3 of whom are going to school this year. Maybe if we took the same stance as schools, and that after a reasonable ( dependent on any other factors ) age, we could contact parents to come in and change them as required they'd soon get on to it. Schools can't, and in my experience, don't take this stance for the same reason, it's not legal. It's been a shock to many Reception staff to have to deal with nappies but that's how it is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_14268 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Well we have been through three ofsteds with this policy, and it clearly works as we are not having the problem of children going to school still in nappies. We are inclusive and we have had special needs children in nappies, but we only make exceptions on individual cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_38881 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 My understanding is that you cannot have a policy that says children have to be potty trained or almost there and this has been so for some time. To be honest as a mum and an EYPS I am slightly shocked that you still would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_44288 Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 Thank you finleysmaid. This is what I was thinking, but as we all do from time to time, I was doubting myself. I do feel this is neglect on the parents behalf and she's completely missed the window of opportunity. This little boy is very bright, he also goes to a childminder, but she just does what mum requests. I'll bit the bullet after the weekend ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_14268 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 My understanding is that you cannot have a policy that says children have to be potty trained or almost there and this has been so for some time. To be honest as a mum and an EYPS I am slightly shocked that you still would. To be honest as a mum and a pre school leader with years of experience behind me I find it shocking that it now seems to be acceptable for children to be in nappies at this age. I guess we just have a different opinion on this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_15046 Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 To be honest as a mum and a pre school leader with years of experience behind me I find it shocking that it now seems to be acceptable for children to be in nappies at this age. I guess we just have a different opinion on this. It isn't about people seeing it as acceptable for children to be in nappies at this age though. It's about enabling all children to have equality of access to education. You are vulnerable to legal action for discrimination if you insist that children can only attend if there is a parent available to come in and change them at any time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_39602 Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Interesting discussion and some sound advice offered , we have parents who formally have had children with us back in the day when children were not accepted in nappies ! This has been with mostly our 2 year olds , " oh but little ? Is not potty trained yet " , I tell them that's ok and we will work together with this when child is ready , as long as we have spare clothing and expect a few accidents , not a problem . We have now found with this attitude and approach , those parents are potty training quicker and 4 out of 5 new young startes have successfully mastered it in little time Unfortunately we have a couple of boys who are more than ready and capable but parents making no attempt to deal with this as putting on a nappy is easier ! It is frustrating and somewhat humiliating for one little boy , the other is a child who is allowed to make too many decisions himself ! I do believe we have a duty to encourage and support toilet training with out being too judgemental but on the other hand sometimes needing to continually reiterate to some the importance of this part of a child's development . What always interests me is that nappies are so expensive , surely you would want to reduce that cost ASAP ! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_38881 Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I do think there's a lot of 'can't be bothered' and keeping them little in there, but it's very difficult to judge it. I feel strongly because my youngest took until late in Y1 to be clean and we didn't get as far as it being medical until he had started school. He's the youngest of 4 so we knew very well what he should do when, but it just didn't happen, and believe me the cost of nappies was an incentive to be out!! The Nursery I work in, which my youngest 2 attended before I started work there, wouldn't accept children who were in nappies, he wasn't but wasn't clean either. They took him and never mentioned it, not sure why ( maybe I'm scary!)as they frequently told people before and after us that their child 'wasn't ready for nursery'. With hindsight, the children they turned away were usually the ones in most dire need of some time in Nursery! Obviously being in Nursery in nappies isn't ideal but it's a fact of life these days and better they are in Nursery, or preschool than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonyMouse_30128 Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 , the other is a child who is allowed to make too many decisions himself ! HA this made me laugh one of my little chaps is also like this but i used it to my advantage! over a period of time put it into his head that toilet training was to his advantage....one afternoon told me he wanted to go in to pants ...so of course i said yes! Was dry all afternoon and has only had one accident since....mother was a bit shocked!!......not the way i would suggest anyone goes unless they know the parents and children well though (and i did in this case) could have easily backfired! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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