The fight against "School Cuts" - Do you agree?

[AnonyMouse_55063]

The following website is a campaign to stop the "School Cuts" http://www.schoolcuts.org.uk/#/

 

This is understandable because when the NFF is implemented they will lose money from their Pre-School children funding. So this raises many questions in itself!

 

Q1) Why do Maintained Pre-School settings get approx twice the amount of funding per child, and have done for years?

 

A1) The obvious answer is qualifications of course. The public sector like to pay themselves good wages no matter how they perform!

 

Q2) Are better qualified staff, better for children? Just because a person has qualifications, does this make them a better role model for children?

 

A2) I don't agree fully with this personally and I feel, although it's great to have knowledge, you really need to have a passion for working with children and have that communication with children and personality comes into it too.

 

Q3) Why do School's appear to have a much louder voice and seem to have more political power than us in the Nursery or Childminding sector? We both do the same job..!

 

A3) I can't answer this except that Public Services seem to get this privilege due to tax payers money being used.. not really within the public's control though!!

 

I will leave it this for now and see what others feel or want to add..

[AnonyMouse_55063]

I take it from the lack of replies that this isn't an issue after all. The fact that, for many years, maintained School's have been receiving much higher rates of funding for doing the same job.

[AnonyMouse_73]

I did write a lengthy reply but then didn't quite finish and never quite returned.

 

I just wondered where you got your funding figures from, as in my experience school pupils don't receive anything like double early years funding, not when you calculate on a per hour basis?

could you share your data source please?

[AnonyMouse_55063]

I am 99% certain, that it was found that Maintained Schools receive much more than PVI.. hence the reason for the website I linked, due to the National Funding Formula reducing their hourly funding rates.

 

It stands to reason that if Schools are facing cuts and PVI are requiring an increase, that the rates of funding currently provided are much different. In some cases maintained settings are receiving over £9 per hour (base rate) whilst PVI settings are receiving just over £3 per hour! Add this to the fact that, Maintained Schools pay a "teachers wage" apposed to the minimum wage of PVI settings that many are on, it therefor stands to reason more money is required within the Pre-School 3/4 year old provision of the School.

 

A per hour basis would be the same if children do 15 hours at a maintained school, Pre-School provision.

 

Source - Page 36 of this - https://consult.education.gov.uk/early-years-funding/eynff/supporting_documents/Consultation%20Document%20%20Early%20Years%20National%20Funding%20Formula%2011%2008%2016.pdf

 

Page 7:

15. Secondly, we will make local authority funding formulae fairer to different types ofproviders by requiring local authorities to use a ‘universal base rate‘ of funding for all providers from 2019-20 at the latest. This means that, all else being equal, a child in a private or voluntary setting will receive the same level of ‘per child’ funding as a child in a nursery class in a primary school.

 

Although this isn't my original source.. I had to search due to forgetting where I originally read this information. I know this shows the other side of the scale too.. and another section of this document shows the highest funded to the lowest too.. as I mentioned.

Edited November 8, 2016 by BroadOaks

[AnonyMouse_73]

Ok thanks for that.

THere is a difference between the EY Single funding formula (EYSFF) which was introduced for early years as part of the statutory guidance for LAs, and the national funding formula designed to bring parity across the country

the EYSSF does 'require' LAS to provide a transparent formula for funding but also to

 

A4.3 Construct a formula composed of either a single base rate for all providers or a number of base rates differentiated by type of provider according to unavoidable cost differences.

 

It does not define 'unavoidable cost differences' but having a teacher could be one, nursery schools have other requirements they have to meet which costs more. But, many LAS have gone with the first option ie a single base rate for all providers. Schools may get more because of deprivation or quality supplements but other providers also meeting those requirements would also get that. This information should be available to you as a provider.

 

The national funding formula is about parity across LAS and if this goes ahead there will be winners and losers, hence some LAs will get less to share out, and some will get more. In terms of school funding the average per child from reception onwards, funding is about £4500, which given children are in school about double the time they are in setting, works out at just under £4 per hour, so not the massive amount that many people think. Of course pupil premium is much higher for schools, and it would be good if this was much higher for EYPP.

 

Now, the qualified teacher issue. Schools have no choice but to pay a teachers (and other staff) salary according to a national pay scale. It isn't about the public sector fancying giving themselves a nice big salary. They have to, even if a teacher is unqualified, still follow a pay scale. Obviously the academies agenda is shifting this and many school staff are very concerned about this but that's a topic for another day.

But the cost of having to pay a QT on a national pay scale is that schools almost always have to use the 13:1 ratio. I don't know of any school that wouldn't love to have an 8:1 ratio but they simply can't afford to. The bottom line therfore for the non maintained sector is that ultimately you have to decide do you pay a teacher salary to your graduate lead or do you stick to your better ratio levels? There just isn't the money to have it both ways ie a teacher salary AND the 8:1 ratio. If it were possible, I'm sure schools would do it!

 

I think the reality is that education across the whole sector is underfunded, and the grass isn't always greener somewhere else.

[AnonyMouse_55063]

Thank you for this information.

 

I think my point is this: A maintained Pre-School Setting ie a provision linked to a school and also even Reception years (EYFS) if I was to stretch this further.. are given more funding. My question is: Why are they, when they do the same job as a PVI setting?

 

i then went on to answer that question by stating that staff are paid higher wages and are usually more "qualified".. hence the need for more funding. Do they do a better job? This is a question that is very hard to answer.

 

It is my belief that the Public Sector overall (just from a search on a job website will prove this) pay higher salaries.. ie a Caretakers Job within a school, is one example. Search it! So the taxpayers money does not stretch as far as it could.. and middle management or higher are on ridiculous salaries.. anyway, this wasn't exactly the issue.

[AnonyMouse_55063]

A quote from a Facebook page...

 

 

In Rotherham they get over £8 an hour, at the "single funding formula" meeting I questioned this more than once. It was because they have head teachers and higher staff wages. I said if they gave me £8 an hour so would I!!! Apparently the higher rates have been capped by the government for a couple of years now. But I will be protesting to this in the meantime. #levelplayingfield

[AnonyMouse_55063]

Sorry to carry this on.. however, I read the Early Years Funding Consultation in more detail and I also found this:

 

 

Component 2: Maintained nursery schools

2. As set out in paragraph 149, we want to minimise disruption and reassure maintained nursery schools on their position.

3. In order to do this, the Government will provide supplementary funding of £55 million a year to local authorities for maintained nursery schools for at least two years. This additional funding takes account of maintained nursery schools’ current costs and will provide much needed stability to the nursery school sector while they explore how to become more sustainable in the longer term, including exploiting scope for efficiencies.

[AnonyMouse_19733]

Some other financial benefits for maintained nursery schools are not having to pay rent, rates or VAT out of their funding.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Pimms o'clock?

[AnonyMouse_55063]

Some other financial benefits for maintained nursery schools are not having to pay rent, rates or VAT out of their funding.

 

I did not even think about that!

 

I do understand to gain a teacher status takes many years studying.. and in that regard, they demand higher salaries. I still however feel that they still only do the same job as many other Childcare Practitioners in the sector and I don't actually believe, that some of these graduates are any better "equipped" to deliver the EYFS to 3 or 4 year old children.

 

We send our staff on many courses ie Behavior Management, Safeguarding, Prevent, SEN, etc, (at our cost usually.) Yes this can be a benefit, I can't deny that, so I can understand how gaining Teacher Status or a Qualified Teacher must be a huge benefit. However, I still feel it is down to an individual and how passionate they are that can really make the differences. A person might have all the knowledge but might not have the personality or confidence to really engage with children, or even the motivation required to really bring the best out of children.

 

"experts" are always changing things.. every year and many people working with children use different approaches to teaching.. so who is right and who is wrong? What actually is the best method? Without even knowing this at this moment in time, firstly it is worrying and secondly, it proves that we can't actually train people the correct methods. When it comes to planning for children, i see many topics on "in the moment planning" "child led activities being best way to learn" verses "Adult led activities and planning ahead and with sheets" and we are still adapting all the time. What works for one child might not work for another.. and the differentials we need to understand.. etc etc.. there is so much to it, of course. Will we ever find the best way to teach?

 

If we do find the best way to teach, will it then be universal for all childcare settings to practice it.. and therefor shouldn't all settings get the same rate of funding after all?

[Guest]

I am sure I read that nursery classes in school are funded very differently to maintained nursery schools, who get a much higher rate - if I can find a recent article I read I will post the link. There has been a minister appointed to look into the issues they face over funding!

[AnonyMouse_55063]

Just digging up this thread I made a while back with some further information that I posted in a new thread.. just to keep this debate open..

 

http://eyfs.info/forums/topic/47557-our-funding-is-decreasing/?p=440949

 

Let me know your thoughts